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Unexpected results - 12/29/2019 6:29:55 PM   
Lawless1


Posts: 316
Joined: 9/6/2015
From: Maryland but now living in SC
Status: offline 		Restarted a modified version of Scn#26, IJN forces attacked PH using bombs only, which happens occasionally. What
was unexpected in that deck armor on Maryland was stronger than the 800kg bombs.

Afternoon Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 107 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 32
B5N2 Kate x 117
D3A1 Val x 101

Allied aircraft
P-36A Mohawk x 20
P-40B Warhawk x 35

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed, 22 damaged
D3A1 Val: 5 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
P-36A Mohawk: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-36A Mohawk: 1 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed, 5 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
ARD YFD-2, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 7, on fire
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 8, on fire
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires
DMS Zane, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PC Tiger, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Reid, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 10, on fire
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 3 Here is the unexpected results, 3 800kg hit deck armor with no damaged to the ship.
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires
DMS Trevor, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ramapo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AG Aries, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 26
Runway hits 34
Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

_____________________________

Two types of ships, targets and submarines
Death from below
Post #: 1
RE: Unexpected results - 12/29/2019 6:57:22 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline 		If I recall historically this type of bomb (a converted battleship shell) had a high dud rate, due to weaknesses in the bomb case introduced during the remanufacturing process and poor quality control with the explosive fill. Of those that scored hits at Pearl Harbor, 20% failed to explode and another 40% yielded only low order explosions.

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Post #: 2
RE: Unexpected results - 12/29/2019 10:49:17 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		How did you manage to get 55 fighters aloft???? Obviously the scenario you used allows more US aircraft aloft than was historically accurate. Is surprise off? Sadly the bomb that hit the real Arizona worked as expected, all too well.

(in reply to Shellshock)
Post #: 3
RE: Unexpected results - 12/29/2019 11:49:12 PM   
Lawless1


Posts: 316
Joined: 9/6/2015
From: Maryland but now living in SC
Status: offline 		Surprise off some groups on training 100%, one P36 and one P40 group on CAP
All patrol a/c on NAVS range 3 or 4

_____________________________

Two types of ships, targets and submarines
Death from below

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Post #: 4
RE: Unexpected results - 12/29/2019 11:55:32 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		A 60% (between complete duds and lower order detonations) among the actual hits may be accounted for by the results in the game (which is a little surprising since the 800 kg bombs seem to cause extensive damage in most games) however there is no differentiation between 250 kg bombs and 800 kg bombs in the results "printed". A careful count during the combat replay of level bombers (B5N2s) vs hits scored (on which ship) might solve several questions at the same time.

Can you replay the turn with extra time to analyze the results (since most players reduce the times in the combat replay).

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Post #: 5
RE: Unexpected results - 12/30/2019 12:07:22 AM   
CmdrMctoast2

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/6/2017
Status: offline 		I think maybe your planes were to low, dive bombing at 9K feet the bombs may have skipped off from the dive angle, if they came in at say 15k feet you might have had better penetration results from the steeper dive.
Just a thought Cause my brain is rusty from an 8 year sabbatical.

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The essence of military genius is to bring under consideration all of the tendencies of the mind and soul in combination towards the business of war.....

Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to Lawless1)
Post #: 6
RE: Unexpected results - 12/30/2019 1:18:58 AM   
Lawless1


Posts: 316
Joined: 9/6/2015
From: Maryland but now living in SC
Status: offline 		I did watch the attack video. Three different B5N dropped on the Maryland, each strike resulted in “Deck armor hit”

What I found surprising was no damage, not even system damage on the Maryland.

In all my many Dec 7 starts, I never seen no damage by 800kg bombs. My experience has been when they hit they hit hard.

I may still loose the Arizona and the Oklahoma




_____________________________

Two types of ships, targets and submarines
Death from below

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Post #: 7
RE: Unexpected results - 12/30/2019 2:22:15 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		If the bombers were too low the 800 kg bomb may not have had sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the armor.

I think the Japanese figured that the 800 kg bomb needed to be dropped from 9000 ft to penetrate the deck armor and that a group of 5 bombers (B5Ns) would likely score 1 hit (so in fact they modified the normal shotai formation (3 bombers) to groups of 5.

The actual results of 10 groups of 5 (50 level bombers assigned) achieved 10 hits overall but the overall results were totally obscured by the result of the single hit on Arizona which detonated the forward magazine (60% were either duds or had a low order of detonation according to the USN post-battle damage assessment).

In fact, IIRC USS Maryland was hit twice by 800 kg bombs and neither did the "as advertised" damage. My experience in the game is much like yours. The 800 kg bombs do considerable damage to the US BBs. I don't think the 60% "dud" rate is reflected in the game.

(in reply to Lawless1)
Post #: 8
RE: Unexpected results - 12/30/2019 4:42:25 AM   
CmdrMctoast2

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/6/2017
Status: offline 		If dive bombing from 9k feet wouldn't they be considered glide bombing so the bombs would hit at an angle not like dive bombing from 15k feet where the bombs would be sent straight down as the plane had sufficient time to angle perpendicular at the target and yes better kinetics?
just a thought.

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under consideration all of the tendencies of the mind and soul in combination towards the business of war.....

Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 9
RE: Unexpected results - 12/30/2019 8:44:52 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		Kates cannot dive bomb, but I assume they could glide bomb, but that was not their doctrine/training.

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Post #: 10
RE: Unexpected results - 12/30/2019 6:17:10 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Kates cannot dive bomb, but I assume they could glide bomb, but that was not their doctrine/training.

The game had a glide bombing calculation when it was released, but that was done away with about five years ago. If the aircraft is not dive bombing it is level bombing.

Attack aircraft types do not actually skip bomb but they get bonuses to their low level attacks to simulate the better chance of hitting. What I have not seen from Attack aircraft bombing is the bombs hitting the ship side only, as opposed to the usual hits mostly on the deck and a few on the side

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 11
RE: Unexpected results - 1/2/2020 10:21:39 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		BB - I was talking about RL, not game life, but I should have made that clear. Lack of sleep.....

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Post #: 12
RE: Unexpected results - 1/2/2020 9:40:27 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

BB - I was talking about RL, not game life, but I should have made that clear. Lack of sleep.....

And when I re-read your comment it is clear that you meant RL - I was the one up late and too sleepy to understand your drift!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 13
RE: Unexpected results - 1/3/2020 12:12:02 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

BB - I was talking about RL, not game life, but I should have made that clear. Lack of sleep.....

And when I re-read your comment it is clear that you meant RL - I was the one up late and too sleepy to understand your drift!




The difference between real life and game life is lack of sleep...plus Tracker.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 14
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