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Gary Grigsby/Joel Billings interview

 
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Gary Grigsby/Joel Billings interview - 7/16/2003 6:25:22 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi folks

You can find it here

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/grisby_billings_interview/

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Post #: 1
- 7/16/2003 7:49:55 PM   
Slick91


Posts: 269
Joined: 12/30/2002
From: Charleston, SC USA
Status: offline 		For some reason you get a password prompt with the above link.

This link seems to work, don't ask me why:

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/grigsby_billings_interview/

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Slick
-----------------------------
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Post #: 2
- 7/16/2003 8:34:31 PM   
thantis

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Cooksville, MD
Status: offline 		Wow, great info there. Looks like we won't be seeing WitP in time for Christmas - maybe by my birthday? (April)......

It's really good to see all of the time & effort (and the love) that these guys put into their game........

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Post #: 3
- 7/16/2003 10:35:31 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Very informative interview. I am reallly impressed with the complexity and difficulties involved in WITP. I really wonder if it is worth it? (Don't be silly, of course it is!) That is, are they making a computer version of the old Europa title "Fire in the East-Scorched Earth". A game that many owned but so few ever played all the way through. Even Gary seems to have some self doubt about this.

I will buy it anyway. Just to show them support for trying.

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Post #: 4
- 7/17/2003 8:28:28 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		I was a little dismayed to see them whining about having to add "bells and whistles" to gain our interest...

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- 7/18/2003 1:54:40 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		--------------------------------------------------
I was a little dismayed to see them whining about having to add "bells and whistles" to gain our interest...
--------------------------------------------------

If you were programing this, you would be whining too. Now you know why nobody ever even tried to copy PacWar let alone WiTP, nobody else makes games like this.

It makes you wonder what Gary and company will do after Witp- maybe a new version of Steel Panters or a nice squad level tactical wargame like computer ambush.?

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Post #: 6
- 7/18/2003 2:41:25 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		What do you think? Does this bode ill for my favorite future project, "UV in the Med?"

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Post #: 7
- 7/18/2003 3:47:05 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pasternakski
[B]What do you think? Does this bode ill for my favorite future project, "UV in the Med?" [/B][/QUOTE]

I hope not. Personally I see Med game more as a UV clone than a WitP one, as its just one theater and Gary did say UV was the proper scale for what he is trying to do. It shouldnt have the AI difficulties because things will generally flow in one of two directions like UV instead of the mult-directional nightmare as described by GG with WitP.

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Post #: 8
- 7/18/2003 8:12:16 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by crsutton
[B] are they making a computer version of the old Europa title "Fire in the East-Scorched Earth". A game that many owned but so few ever played all the way through.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually originally named Drang Nach Osten and Unentschieden when released in 1973, (Dating myself again) I have always seen the Europa series as conceptually the best war games ever done. It's sheer size at 16 miles a hex and attention to detail were and still are unmatched. UV comes as close as any war-game I have played, especially since PC's killed the board game in the mid 80's.

And truth be told I had rather hoped WITP would indeed become the Pacific version of Europa but after reading the interview I see that the challenges faced by the designers may be to much to overcome and the level of detail is just too great for the current technology, that is a shame as I had this hope against hope that maybe just maybe the UV/WITP engine could be expanded into a true simulation of the entire WWII conflict The Ultimate War Game if you will (Something I would be willing to spend big bucks on and then spend my retirement years gladly playing)

The biggest problem with Europa was it's size few folks had a place to lay it all out and actually be able to play it, My mother got so mad at me for taking over the dining room and also for me coming unglued at any suggestion of actually ever using it for eating. There was a bloody battle over Thanksgiving dinner one year, which I lost along with about 6 months of game play. My Father finally came up with a solution he went out and bought several 4 x 8 sheets of corkboard and about a b-zillion pins and mounted the corkboard to the biggest wall in my bedroom. I then mounted the map to the wall and my friends and I spent months locked up in my bedroom playing.

I still have those maps and die cut counters with little holes in them and about a hundred other war games from the 70's and 80's in boxes in a closet that I can not seem to part with. We now have the perfect platform (the modern PC) to play these monster detailed games but even as far as technology has come in the last 25-30 years we still have not arrived at a point it looks like where it is possible to produce games with a Europa style level of scale and detail.

In a way this interview should end many of the nit-picking arguments in these forums, Now that we know the details we have to accept that WITP will not be all we hoped it would be and the level of detail we wanted is not going to happen. Some things will be recreated in generic fashion and it is a waste of everyone's time to argue if a B-17 could or could not hit a ship moving at 30 knots against Cap that may or may not intercept, Just an example but one of the more outrages ones to be sure. So WITP will end up with maybe not as much detail as UV, but light years ahead of PacWar and that works for me. Will I still purchase WITP you bet!!! And someday, maybe GG will figure out all the problems/limitations and give us the Ultimate Wargame.

Sorry for just rambling on here, you know us Texans we just love to talk :D

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- 7/19/2003 12:41:57 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
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From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		[B]So WITP will end up with maybe not as much detail as UV, but light years ahead of PacWar and that works for me. Will I still purchase WITP you bet!!! And someday, maybe GG will figure out all the problems/limitations and give us the Ultimate Wargame. [/B]

If you could see how much has been done on WitP, the level of detail currently existing...I dont think you would lose heart. Personally I think Gary was just doing a little venting, since nobody but he and Joel really can grasp the mind numbing amount of work that is going into this game...I think Gary was saying 'Hey, if it isn't everything you have worked it up to be in your mind, dont crucify me! I'm trying!'

If you could see the progress that has been accomplished so far, you wouldn't be worrying about Gary tossing his hands up in the air and surrendering to the overwhelming level of detail. I'm sure he knows that if he doesn't make this game happen, it never will happen. This really does have the potential to be 'The Ultimate Wargame'. It would be great if someone would take up the challenge of making a similar game for the European/Russian War.

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Post #: 10
- 7/19/2003 8:18:27 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		Wow 6 months till it's done:(

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Post #: 11
- 7/19/2003 9:01:28 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Produce a decent AI or you won't sell enough to keep you alive.

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Post #: 12
- 7/22/2003 4:57:18 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		On the 2 by 3 website, they have 3 games - the third is to be set on the Russian front.

Not in the Med.

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Post #: 13
- 7/22/2003 5:23:35 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		Is that recently updated? I remember reading somewhere that the 2by3 guys had stated the 3rd game was in the Med theatre. That 2by3 page may have not been updated for a while.

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"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 14
- 7/22/2003 7:59:14 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		The "Med" is a dream of some players.

If you say it often enough people start to believe it.

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Post #: 15
- 7/22/2003 8:16:35 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]The "Med" is a dream of some players.

If you say it often enough people start to believe it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Med, Med, Med, Med, (is that often enough?).

After someone had mentioned it I thought that the best way to go would be to follow up UV with a Med game and then go back to the Pacific with WitP. But hey, I'll take it the way it is. :)

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Post #: 16
- 7/23/2003 7:18:31 PM   
Mike_B20

 

Posts: 389
Joined: 2/13/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		I've been a great fan of Gary Grigsby ever since buying Typhoon of Steel in the mid 80's for my Commodore 64.
I was totally absorbed by that game for yonks.

Interesting to read that he feels he may be hitting the wall with WITP and that he is human after all.
Here's hoping he pulls it off and gives us yet another classic.

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Post #: 17
- 7/23/2003 9:04:38 PM   
color

 

Posts: 324
Joined: 7/24/2001
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]On the 2 by 3 website, they have 3 games - the third is to be set on the Russian front.

Not in the Med. [/B][/QUOTE]

If you check the website you will see development on the Russian Front game is currently on hold.

Jorgen

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Post #: 18
- 7/23/2003 10:14:18 PM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sonny
[B]Med, Med, Med, Med, (is that often enough?).

After someone had mentioned it I thought that the best way to go would be to follow up UV with a Med game and then go back to the Pacific with WitP. But hey, I'll take it the way it is. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Guys

The med is the next game planned in the series. It will be based more on the UV then WITP. Of course we may change our minds but that is the plan.

David

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Post #: 19
- 7/24/2003 12:42:25 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Heath
[B]Hi Guys

The med is the next game planned in the series. It will be based more on the UV then WITP. Of course we may change our minds but that is the plan.

David [/B][/QUOTE]

Bwahahahaha! PLEASE don't change your minds...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 20
- 7/24/2003 7:52:29 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Heath
[B]Hi Guys

The med is the next game planned in the series. It will be based more on the UV then WITP. Of course we may change our minds but that is the plan.

David [/B][/QUOTE]

Excellent, excellent, excellent...:D :)

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Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

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Post #: 21
- 7/25/2003 12:50:24 AM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		I dont know guys...the way the Commonwealth suffled
assets BOTH in and out of theater, would make the Med a
VERY difficult simulation. Just look at Campaign for North Afrika.
Its a nightmare of moving units.

Just a comment

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Post #: 22
- 7/25/2003 2:12:28 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		The elements are all there.

Situation: two powerful navies....one stretched and harried, but harboring a deep confidence and conviction, a determination to see things through come what may and a rich hertitage to fall back on.

The other.....a more recent entity, uncertain, powerful with great potential and a desire to absolve the past.

I say bring it on because dag nabbit....."Bomb Alley" is just a little too dated after getting used to UV :D

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Post #: 23
- 7/25/2003 3:58:25 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		UV in the Med would be great.

The ground combat routines need to be amended.

For the Grand Campaign, the starting date would be June 1940 with the Italian invasion of France.

And end on 6th June 1944 - with the fall of Rome.

There would need to be a hex called "New York" and one called "Hamburg" somewhere west of Gibraltar to represent both ports in the game.

It must be on the scale of UV - not WITP.

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Post #: 24
- 7/25/2003 4:12:35 AM   
TIMJOT

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiteng
[B]I dont know guys...the way the Commonwealth suffled
assets BOTH in and out of theater, would make the Med a
VERY difficult simulation. Just look at Campaign for North Afrika.
Its a nightmare of moving units.

Just a comment [/B][/QUOTE]


I dont know Chiteng, they didnt really shuffle many units out (land units at least) excluding the Aussies of course and for Normandy, but by then the campaign should be over.

Remember its not just N.Africa its the Med, so UK units shuffled out of N. Africa to East Africa, Palastine, Syria, Greece, Crete would be emcompessed within the game. It would be the player's choice when and where these units would be deployed.

IMO, the UV engine is perfect for the Med. They just need to beef up the land combat model and add some sort of politcal/theater/event variables into the mix.

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Post #: 25
- 7/25/2003 5:02:48 AM   
Blitzer

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		IMO, the UV engine is perfect for the Med. They just need to beef up the land combat model and add some sort of politcal/theater/event variables into the mix. [/B][/QUOTE]

And the fact that Allied sigint was reading the majority of Axis naval codes; I'm curious exactly how that will be handled.:confused:

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Post #: 26
- 7/25/2003 5:34:11 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]And the fact that Allied sigint was reading the majority of Axis naval codes; I'm curious exactly how that will be handled[/QUOTE]

No fog of war for the Allied player! :D

Let's see you play THAT game and win :p

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Post #: 27
- 7/26/2003 10:55:01 PM   
ADM Vincent

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/1/2000
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline 		How would the German Para's be handled?

We should be able to drop on Malta what, a division?
Like Crete. :D

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Post #: 28
Malta - 7/27/2003 1:24:48 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, There would have to be a "Rommel keeps the Luftwaffe" option. (making any airdrop on Malta impossible)

But if it were possible there would be 3 airborne div at least (2 German and 1 Italian)

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Post #: 29
- 7/27/2003 8:29:04 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Normandy was the 6th JUne 1944

Rome fell on 6th June 1944

It seems to me that a UV in the Med would end on 6th June 1944.

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Post #: 30
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