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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it?

 
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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/15/2020 5:24:45 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Let's review:

- Fewer pilots in the 12 training classes means less expenditure of HI. That we seem to agree on.
- The pilots who graduate early, have an experience level which is close to or at the national experience level. Keeping them in the training class does not get them any additional experience. It simply burns HI.
- Graduates, early or otherwise, go into the "pool of pilots without a name". They do not appear in units and cannot be trained further in ANY WAY until the player draws them into a unit. Thus adding more pilots to the "un-named pilot pool" has NO EFFECT on supply.
- Lastly, airframes burn supply, not pilots (see manual, pg.252). So even if you did drag all the new pilots straight into a unit, it won't have any effect on supply.

In sum, TRACOM is NOT a trade-off between HI and supply. Rather it reduces the expenditure of both.


Nice arguments, but they're wrong.

quote:

Graduates, early or otherwise, go into the "pool of pilots without a name".


And this is where...

The only way, AFAIK, to get pilots out of the training cycle is to totally drain your pilots pools. Once that's done then, and only then, may you get pilots out of the training cycle. By doing that all pilots will have to be 'in the game', or as you say named. Therefore, you will have to train them up by spending supply.

And please don't even get me started on the old argument about the number of planes in the unit and the training rate. Just suffice it to say that from what's been posted about it and personnel experience there is some effect.



< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/15/2020 5:25:33 PM >

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 61
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/15/2020 5:28:06 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		I have run the IJN pilot pool empty after resizing air units.

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Post #: 62
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/15/2020 5:42:56 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I have run the IJN pilot pool empty after resizing air units.


I've nearly done it too. What the point?


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 63
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/15/2020 6:00:21 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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Status: offline 		Then you can get the pilots out of the training schools and save HI.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 64
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/15/2020 6:21:00 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 65
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/16/2020 12:01:29 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Nice arguments, but they're wrong.

quote:

Graduates, early or otherwise, go into the "pool of pilots without a name".


And this is where...

The only way, AFAIK, to get pilots out of the training cycle is to totally drain your pilots pools. Once that's done then, and only then, may you get pilots out of the training cycle. By doing that all pilots will have to be 'in the game', or as you say named. Therefore, you will have to train them up by spending supply.



This is from the programmer:

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

The number of TRACOM guys can increase the month's EXP rating of the raw pilots.
If the new EXP exceeds the national EXP, then a random number of pilots will 'graduate' early.
When this happens, you get a message "instructors accelerate training of" in the operation report.


When they "graduate early", they are out of the training cycle (and no longer burning HI). And on the first of every month, so is every member of the 12th month class - without any action whatsoever on the part of the player. And because of TRACOM, the average experience level of the class will be higher.

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Post #: 66
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/16/2020 5:52:44 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

When they "graduate early", they are out of the training cycle (and no longer burning HI).


The way it works is that a random number of pilots are accelerated from a random month. They are not yet necessarily out of the training cycle. Granted they will eventually 'graduate' early.

quote:

And because of TRACOM, the average experience level of the class will be higher.


Again, not necessarily. The limits of the nation average will still come into play, +/- whatever the parameter may be.





_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 67
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/16/2020 7:18:55 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

When they "graduate early", they are out of the training cycle (and no longer burning HI).


The way it works is that a random number of pilots are accelerated from a random month. They are not yet necessarily out of the training cycle. Granted they will eventually 'graduate' early.


Good, so we agree.

quote:

quote:

And because of TRACOM, the average experience level of the class will be higher.


Again, not necessarily. The limits of the nation average will still come into play, +/- whatever the parameter may be.


Of course - those who know how this works always specify uncertainty. The benefits are always described as things that "might" or "can" happen. But over the course of 12 months, applied to 12 different classes 12 different times, "might happen" becomes "almost certainly happened some number of times". But even so, yes, the number can never rise HIGHER than the national average. But the effect over 12 months, besides early graduations, is this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Graduating pilots come out with experience which is within a range +/- of the national average. Having pilots in Tracom will aid reducing the negative spread but will not boost them to above the national average.

Alfred


In other words, a smaller spread between the experience levels at the bottom and those at the top. And since the top number is fixed (i.e. the national average), a reduced "negative spread" can only mean higher experience levels for those pilots at the bottom of the range. If, absent TRACOM, a particular graduating class has pilots at the bottom with EXP of 22 but with TRACOM it's 23, it will take a non-zero number of supply-expending days of on-map training to make up the difference.

Admittedly if you have only 10 pilots in TRACOM, the improvements (if any) are little more than statistical noise, but a player who makes a serious effort to populate TRACOM (with say 100 or more pilots) is going to see some very noticeable improvements.

There is an opportunity cost to doing this, of course. Many players would much rather use those top pilots to kill the enemy, and certainly that's a valid point. The other factor to consider is that - per the Pilot Management Addendum:

"if pilot is in a group with some training percent (number of veteran pilots (experience of 80+) increases chance of successful training"

That refers to on-map training, but it begs the question. How many 80+ pilots have to be in any given on-map training group before you see a benefit? Unfortunately, that's completely unknown (other than it has no benefit at all once the trainees reach 50 in EXP+missions+kills). By contrast, at least with TRACOM we know that you need 10 pilots per nationality to have some chance of accelerated training.

< Message edited by Kull -- 2/16/2020 7:19:41 PM >

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/17/2020 10:26:16 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
... but a player who makes a serious effort to populate TRACOM (with say 100 or more pilots) is going to see some very noticeable improvements.


Oh yeah, improvements you might see. just maybe not what you could've expected

Both are stock 1 scenarios




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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/17/2020 11:44:14 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
... but a player who makes a serious effort to populate TRACOM (with say 100 or more pilots) is going to see some very noticeable improvements.


Oh yeah, improvements you might see. just maybe not what you could've expected

Both are stock 1 scenarios







_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 70
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/17/2020 6:41:06 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Oh yeah, improvements you might see. just maybe not what you could've expected

Both are stock 1 scenarios



Thanks! You mentioned this earlier, so I was hoping you'd post screenshots. What's interesting is those "Experience" numbers in the 4th column come from the Editor's Scenario screen (see attachment for 2012 version of Scenario 1). These are NOT averages - they are fixed values that are set when the scenario is constructed, and can only change annually (note that the values in the attachment are for 1943). Accordingly they should just be reference values for the training code, not something that can be altered.

Yet apparently that is happening, and not just with the IJN - even the IJA fixed experience numbers (36) are not a set value in Scenario 1 (in any year).

If this really is a bug driven by "numbers of pilots in TRACOM", then it should be fairly common. It would be helpful if other folks with long running games could look at their games and post similar screenshots showing non-standard Experience values on that screen. Or even instances where they have more than 100 TRACOM pilots of a single nationality and are NOT seeing this issue. Because otherwise your example is just a single data point, and perhaps something else has caused the bug.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kull -- 2/17/2020 6:42:00 PM >

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

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Japan Air-Engine Plan

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Post #: 71
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/18/2020 10:36:05 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
... but a player who makes a serious effort to populate TRACOM (with say 100 or more pilots) is going to see some very noticeable improvements.


Oh yeah, improvements you might see. just maybe not what you could've expected

Both are stock 1 scenarios






Yeah, I don't think that's WAD. I don't know if its just you or if someone else has also shown similar numbers. I can recall earlier games that I've played with large numbers in the TRACOM, but never noticed any increases above the national training level. OTOH, playing against the AI I always 'won' an auto-victory by Jan '43, so I never went further.

In my current game I'm going further for several reasons, and one of them is to see if I may influence the training levels the same way. I'm in mid-43, and up 'til July I've kept my TRACOM numbers small. To date the national average has remained fairly level, although IJN experience has dipped to 32, but then again I've only got about 85 pilots in the pool.

I'm in the process of increasing my TRACOM as fast as I can. I'll post if and when anything significant happens. Again I don't think its WAD to greatly exceed the national average. But at this point I don't think anything can be done about it, with the support gone.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 72
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/19/2020 7:48:30 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
... but a player who makes a serious effort to populate TRACOM (with say 100 or more pilots) is going to see some very noticeable improvements.


Oh yeah, improvements you might see. just maybe not what you could've expected

Both are stock 1 scenarios





If you pull those 65 exp guys into air groups, do they arrive with that or IJN national experience?

There was something in MichaelM's post that suggested that on graduation on the first of the month they go in the no name pool at or near national Exp level, not whatever higher figure the screen says the average is.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/19/2020 1:11:48 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
If you pull those 65 exp guys into air groups, do they arrive with that or IJN national experience?

I mentioned that in my first message on the subject.

Yes, they arrive with high xp. This is the new national xp, no longer the one set in the editor (at 35 in stock 1)

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/19/2020 4:42:20 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
... but a player who makes a serious effort to populate TRACOM (with say 100 or more pilots) is going to see some very noticeable improvements.


Oh yeah, improvements you might see. just maybe not what you could've expected

Both are stock 1 scenarios





If you pull those 65 exp guys into air groups, do they arrive with that or IJN national experience?

There was something in MichaelM's post that suggested that on graduation on the first of the month they go in the no name pool at or near national Exp level, not whatever higher figure the screen says the average is.


That would be good. Again, if no one else responds, I'll check when I get to that point. I will take me a while though, could be months at my current rate of play. Lately it has taken me roughly three months to play two weeks. I'll try to pick up the pace, shouldn't be too difficult.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 75
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 2/19/2020 4:46:06 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
If you pull those 65 exp guys into air groups, do they arrive with that or IJN national experience?

I mentioned that in my first message on the subject.

Yes, they arrive with high xp. This is the new national xp, no longer the one set in the editor (at 35 in stock 1)


Should have read further before I responded. Apologies.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 76
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/2/2020 12:24:42 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

If this really is a bug driven by "numbers of pilots in TRACOM", then it should be fairly common. It would be helpful if other folks with long running games could look at their games and post similar screenshots showing non-standard Experience values on that screen.


Coming late, had to wait for a fresh turn to do screenies.

As you can see, I have 340+ IJN pilots in TRACOM.

The experience is currently 62.

There are 62 post-graduate "no name pilots" in the pool.

There are no pilots on the "10-12" class ready to graduate.

There are 473 pilots in the "7-9" class with an exp of 56.

I have emptied a recon group of its pilots and then pulled one replacement pilot from the pool.

The "replacement" pilot showed up with an exp of 62.

The I pulled more "replacements" from the pool - exp was between 67 and 55 so way above the "national experience" set in the editor!

For comparison, the IJA pilot replacements show up with 34 exp, close to the "national experience" - I have "only" 78 IJA pilots in TRACOM.

Edit: Now, I am suprised about the high recon skills of the "replacement" pilots! The number of pilots "In pool" dropped from 62 to 39 (WTH? 24 pilot spulled should leave 38 in pool, but well...) so those new guys in that recon squadron really came from the "no name pilots" replacements!





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 3/2/2020 12:38:19 PM >

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/2/2020 8:51:15 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

exp was between 67 and 55 so way above the "national experience" set in the editor!


Yeah, not WAD IMHO, but what can we do about it now. Didn't used to be like that back in the day. Something must have crept into one of the updates.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 78
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 11:07:23 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		And, therefore, the answer to the question is:

Yes.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 11:37:19 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
And, therefore, the answer to the question is:

Yes.

The fact that you can do something in the current game engine does not mean that you should do it.
This particular issue with IJNAF TRACOM unintended effect would be a bug exploit. Of course if done consciously with the expectation of the aforementioned result.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 12:41:58 PM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		He didn't ask if it was ethical, just if it was worth it.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 12:50:37 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

He didn't ask if it was ethical, just if it was worth it.

Is it worth it when it is unethical?

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 1:20:00 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

He didn't ask if it was ethical, just if it was worth it.

Is it worth it when it is unethical?


It depends upon your moral character.

As far as worth it in cost savings, think of the HI saved for the Japanese by getting those pilots out sooner while also being highly trained which then saves supply and time training the pilots. But whether a player wants to do that or not, it happens. The way to get around that is to take the trainees even sooner when their experience is even lower.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 2:02:24 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		There probably needs to be a HR against this now....it's too bad, because clearly something got jacked. A little unfair to the Japanese player, but it's too inbalanced to allow 60+ experienced pilots.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 2:24:36 PM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Coming late, had to wait for a fresh turn to do screenies.

As you can see, I have 340+ IJN pilots in TRACOM.

The experience is currently 62.


Thanks for posting the results, LST. So now we have two instances of IJN with 300+ pilots in TRACOM and graduating experience levels far higher than the national cap. Even the guys in the 4-6 month window are 12 points too high!

It would be helpful if an Allied player could post something similar so we could determine if it's an overall TRACOM bug, or just something affecting Japan.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/3/2020 3:24:19 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		I do know that with the modification for the extra allied air units that can be bought for the air frames, pilots training there gain skills a lot faster.

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Post #: 86
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/4/2020 12:31:49 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

He didn't ask if it was ethical, just if it was worth it.

Is it worth it when it is unethical?


The "serious" wargaming world has a long tradition when it comes to strategic level simulations of the Pacific theatre of WW2 (including the east Asian landmass). It is a tradition that stretches all the way back to the first, flawed attempt, SPI's Gobal War, in 1975. SPI's War in the Pacific has it to a lesser extent, World in Flames has it, and WITP:AE has it.

The Japanese industrial capacity is artificially inflated, so as to make a playable game of it. Ethics are not entirely applicable, because while AE comes closest, none of these games are really historical simulations. Allowing the Japanese player to exploit whatever the coding allows is in keeping with the overall approach of bending history in that direction anyway. Allowing the Allied player to do it probably won't help as much, but it will still help.

So I don't regard this as unethical in the sense that blatant cheating is unethical. A house rule to restrict it to say 50 pilots, applicable to both sides, might ameliorate the concern about it.

Edit - meaning a cap of 50, or possibly 59 in TRACOM.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 3/4/2020 12:35:52 AM >

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/4/2020 7:23:13 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Edit - meaning a cap of 50, or possibly 59 in TRACOM.


Have considered this, but I figured a cap of 99. For myself if that didn't work I'd inform my opponent that I'd be lowering the number. Japan gets a lot in this game, wouldn't want to take more.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 88
RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/5/2020 2:55:10 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Edit - meaning a cap of 50, or possibly 59 in TRACOM.


Have considered this, but I figured a cap of 99. For myself if that didn't work I'd inform my opponent that I'd be lowering the number. Japan gets a lot in this game, wouldn't want to take more.


Some allied players (as reported here) like to hide a bunch of their best pilots in TRACOM, so they can re-activate them when the F4U, Spitfire Mk VIII and ultimately the F6F become available. They might actually want more than 99.

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RE: TRACOM: Is it worth it? - 3/5/2020 3:00:00 AM   
Scott_USN

 

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Status: offline 		There is no cheating as Allies if you are playing Andy Mac Insane Dababs.

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