RE: Time dialation and speed of information

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Time dialation and speed of information

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds 1 Series >> RE: Time dialation and speed of information

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 3:57:47 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline

As in every game or sci-fi you will have to go into it with some pre set notion of how the universe work that does not correlate with reality... such as a universal time frame and FTL communications... otherwise things would not work.

A hard sci-fi game would not really work very well as the galaxy is really vast and time will pass different depending on the speed of an object. While time will progress very similar in different starsystems even here time would dilute more and more over time.

I don't think it would be feasible to make a game that is this accurate without bending some of the laws of physics in some way shape and form... ;)

Post #: 1

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 4:13:03 PM

Siddham

Posts: 159
Joined: 3/18/2012
Status: offline

I dont accept the time dilation aspect of Relativity theory in a similar way that I dont accept some of the weird paradoxical speculations derived from Quantum Mechanics.
In both cases I think these are misinterpretations that arises from internal characteristics of the mathematics used to express these theories.
Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 2

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/23/2020 6:21:30 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

I dont accept the time dilation aspect of Relativity theory in a similar way that I dont accept some of the weird paradoxical speculations derived from Quantum Mechanics.
In both cases I think these are misinterpretations that arises from internal characteristics of the mathematics used to express these theories.
Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.

With that you mean that satellites in space that need to be configured for time dilution due to relativity is fake and we just do it for fun... or is it something else you think it depends on? ;)

Time, space and gravity are finely connected and can be warped and stretched in different ways. This means that an FTL communication device could potentially get the answer before the question is sent from objects moving at different speeds using different vectors etc..

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 1/23/2020 6:22:41 PM >

(in reply to Siddham)

Post #: 3

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 1/24/2020 4:33:09 PM

Canute0

Posts: 616
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

As in every game or sci-fi you will have to go into it with some pre set notion of how the universe work that does not correlate with reality... such as a universal time frame and FTL communications... otherwise things would not work.

Sure it will work, but not as RTS gameplay anymore.
You create a fleet, give them orders what they should do and then they either report back with a fast courier vesser and wait for new orders from that courier or fly back to the HQ.
Basicly the same like at the good old times, when sailships are on mission for years at the new world.
I got once a game with this, LONG time ago.

But while they wait for new orders from the courier, they need to sleep at cyrocaskets.

< Message edited by Canute0 -- 1/24/2020 4:38:39 PM >

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)

Post #: 4

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 2/1/2020 7:40:14 PM

MatBailie

Posts: 122
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

The problem is that there is no universal concept of "now". If you read up on Simultaneity you'll find that it gets messed up really quickly. (Good starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrNVsfkGW-0 )

So, when you look at the galaxy view, you can't see what all the different places in the galaxy actually look like "now" because "now" isn't a valid concept it physics.

You'd have to pick a location, and see what the galaxy currently looks like from that location, given the speed of light.

You couldn't even easily change the location that you've viewing from. You couldn't switch to a different star at see what It's "now" looks like, because, again, "now" doesn't exist.

Then again, if you're going to start a conversation with both "time dilation is accurately modeled" and "FTL", you may as well make it All up any way. The very physics that model time dilation also forbid accelerating to or past the speed of light; so adding FTL means you may as well give two fingers to time dilation too.

< Message edited by MatBailie -- 2/1/2020 8:00:56 PM >

Post #: 5

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 2/1/2020 7:42:05 PM

MatBailie

Posts: 122
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siddham

I dont accept the time dilation aspect of Relativity theory in a similar way that I dont accept some of the weird paradoxical speculations derived from Quantum Mechanics.
In both cases I think these are misinterpretations that arises from internal characteristics of the mathematics used to express these theories.
Therefore I am fine with those kinds of theoretical oddities being ignored in sci-fi games.

You might not accept it, but it has been directly observed, in Many different scenarios. Indeed, it is significant enough that it has to be embedded in the calculations for GPS to work.

It may be that we don't correctly understand the physics, much as Newton didn't understand gravity in the same was as Einstein. But Einstein's advancements took account of additional observations, it didn't some-how invalidate old observations. Similarly, any future physics will still need to explain the time dilation that Has been Directly observed, it won't be able to ignore those observations.

Time-dilation is an observation, not a theory. Relativity is the theory to explain the observations.

< Message edited by MatBailie -- 2/1/2020 7:51:16 PM >

(in reply to Siddham)

Post #: 6

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/30/2020 5:57:27 AM

PoorNavigator

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/27/2019
Status: offline

It would be interesting. And it would certainly be an interesting coding/modelling challenge. But the conceit of FTL is that it prevents these relativistic issues.

(in reply to MatBailie)

Post #: 7

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/30/2020 6:51:57 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline

I think they got it right. The worlds flat the universe must be or at least it is on my screen

(in reply to PoorNavigator)

Post #: 8

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/31/2020 7:01:14 PM

Jorgen_CAB

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline

The biggest hurdle to get over is that it is TIME that is the problem not space itself. We can predict quite ccurately when an object is going to be at a certain point in space using relativity.

The problem is that when we fold space between two points we don't know the time at the end point as time is relative and not constant. Time depend on both gravity and speed.

This is a concept that is difficult for most to understand it is a problem when using FTL or Wormholes... ;)

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 9

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 3/31/2020 9:51:39 PM

MatBailie

Posts: 122
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

My point is the the conceit itself makes the explicit premise ("time dilation accurately modelled") redundant.

I.e. You can't have time dilation accurately modelled whilst also having the conceit(s) implied by having FTL.

(in reply to PoorNavigator)

Post #: 10

RE: Time dialation and speed of information - 4/7/2020 10:00:02 PM

fuke

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/28/2017
Status: offline

A great reminder why DW is so cool: it has the kind of players who talk about the big questions, not just how to min-max some arbitrary cookie cutter DLC mechanics.

I must admit I still don't understand relativity or the famous train example. Spatial relativity makes sense, I get that location is a relative concept. I also get that light takes time to travel so when you see anything you are seeing a reflection of its past state. And I know time dilation has been observed in spacecraft.

But all the explanations of relativity I have seen/read seem to be confusing the observed state of an object and its present state. Perceptional relativity does not equal true relativity.

Like, say I see a star in the sky. It has gone supernova and exploded millions of years ago. But I won't see the explosion in my lifetime, to me it still looks like a healthy normal star. I think there is a true "now" objective state -- the star looks alive due to light lag, but it is dead now.

I don't see how FTL communication or travel breaks any of this. Like, I get that lightspeed travel will cause travelers to go into slow-mo relative to observers, but how does that enable communications to go back in time?

Maybe my problem is that I think too much in terms of games

... we have perceptional relativity and time dilation in games (I got sniped and according to the server my character is now dead, but I don't know that yet - on the client I'm still alive due to lag), but I haven't been able to send messages back in time in any game.

I'm sure that Einstein was right, I just don't get it yet