Game complication, a detrement to the hobby?

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Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 8:37:55 PM

BeirutDude

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From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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All,

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Just something I've been thinking about. I have one game I play regularly "CMO" that is soooooooo complicated that it consumes all of my playing time and I'm still learning it. Cool! BUT...

The following games sit on my Hard Drive never played because I don't have time to get into the details and nuances of them

WiTP: Admiral's Edition
Armored Brigade (all addons)
SC War in Europe & World at War
GG:WitE (all Addons)
GG:WiTW (all addons)

So with that much money invested (and that's not even including the Tiller games). I have STOPPED BUYING GAMES! Matrix or Tiller.

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules. I started up Armored Brigade last night to "do something different than CMO," and after 20 minutes I became frustrated and gave up because I had forgotten to much about the game interface.

So just got the 30% off coupon for Easter, and there are about three Matrix games (and three Tiller games) I have an interest in, but is it worth it to buy more games, that I won't have the time to learn????

Am I alone here?

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/9/2020 9:08:59 PM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 8:46:52 PM

AndySfromVA

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I bet everyone who buys games has many that they've played once or twice. I keep thinking I'll return to them some day - and perhaps I will. That reminds me, I bought Civ 5 at a cheap price from Fanatical and I've just got to take the time to play it.

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 2

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 8:49:11 PM

Twotribes

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I like BIG games. So I used to buy them then ya get bogged down learning how to play them. Now I play Advanced tactics Gold warplan and SPMBT( sometimes SPWW2 or SPWAW) I also play an online MMORPG. I buy currency for that instead of new games though occasional a game will catch my eye.

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Post #: 3

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 8:52:11 PM

wodin

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Plenty of wargames out there that aren't complex monsters. It's good we have the few that we do have available.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 9:08:26 PM

BeirutDude

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quote:

Plenty of wargames out there that aren't complex monsters. It's good we have the few that we do have available.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the monsters?

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 9:19:08 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

quote:

Plenty of wargames out there that aren't complex monsters. It's good we have the few that we do have available.

Maybe I'm just drawn to the monsters?

warspite1

I'm drawn to the monsters; I have all the GG games - and it took that level of expenditure and trying to get into each before it hit me. I actually just don't like his games. It's not the complexity its the mechanics. So I am a one monster game man - Matrix World In Flames at present.

But I still play other stuff from time to time, but I find I play it, tire of it and then always go back to MWIF. But I would like to try another monster. War In The Mediterranean 1940-1943 - land sea and air. Fantastic!! That would be worth spending serious money and time on.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 9:40:25 PM

IslandInland

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I love complicated. WITW/WITE are my favourite wargames of all time.

A full European war in the WITW/WITE 2 engine would be my idea of heaven as long as naval warfare was much less abstracted.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 9:48:54 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Did you try something like Panzer Corps? This is fun and not too complicated. Number 2 is out now.
Have a look at Unity of Command or Warplan too.

Cheers

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 10:08:52 PM

BeirutDude

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Yeah, I have Panzer Corps and that was too simplistic for my tastes.

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

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Post #: 9

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 10:13:44 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Yeah, I have Panzer Corps and that was too simplistic for my tastes.

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

warspite1

100% NO.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/9/2020 10:33:40 PM

BeirutDude

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From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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Warplan is one of the games on my radar.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 4/9/2020 10:51:17 PM >

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 12:46:22 AM

budd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Yeah, I have Panzer Corps and that was too simplistic for my tastes.

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

I buy less games because i already own most of them.

I've come to the conclusion of just enjoying the ride of complex games. It used to seem like you never got anywhere, 3 hours and only finished two turns. I've had WITE for years and still haven't played the campaign, its just a bridge to far for me right now but i've spent probably around 400 hours playing the smaller scenarios. Some complex games i've learned that i enjoy them more when others are playing, i read the AAR's or watch a lets play. I just try to enjoy each gaming session i have no matter what game i'm playing.

I looked at the Matrix catalog for something to spend the Easter coupon on, and no luck. I either have the game or something similar.

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Post #: 12

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 1:31:09 AM

demyansk

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I agree, I wish I co u or resell some games, I bought over 15 Solitaire board games and haven't played them. Same thing with computer. I have a load of games but still play Panzer Korps.

Enough!!!!!

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Post #: 13

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 2:31:38 AM

z1812

Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
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I solved this problem for myself a while ago. I know I only have so much time for gaming, so it has to be something that I really want and that I will play. No impulse buying.

The only game on my radar right now is Second Front. I will wait until that is released and reviewed, then all being equal I will buy it the first time it is on sale.

Games so frequently go on sale that I have no problem waiting.

In terms of complexity, I prefer games where battles are on the small to medium side. Some of my favorites are Field of Glory 2, Flashpoint Red Storm, and the Combat Mission series. I consider these games to be very manageable to learn and enjoy.

I much prefer the complexity of wargaming to be in the planning, strategy, and execution. Not in the rule set and game system.

< Message edited by z1812 -- 4/10/2020 2:45:05 AM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 10:00:20 AM

rico21

Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

All,

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Just something I've been thinking about. I have one game I play regularly "CMO" that is soooooooo complicated that it consumes all of my playing time and I'm still learning it. Cool! BUT...

The following games sit on my Hard Drive never played because I don't have time to get into the details and nuances of them

WiTP: Admiral's Edition
Armored Brigade (all addons)
SC War in Europe & World at War
GG:WitE (all Addons)
GG:WiTW (all addons)

So with that much money invested (and that's not even including the Tiller games). I have STOPPED BUYING GAMES! Matrix or Tiller.

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules. I started up Armored Brigade last night to "do something different than CMO," and after 20 minutes I became frustrated and gave up because I had forgotten to much about the game interface.

So just got the 30% off coupon for Easter, and there are about three Matrix games (and three Tiller games) I have an interest in, but is it worth it to buy more games, that I won't have the time to learn????

Am I alone here?

My current available brain time to play is two hours a day so I only play tactical games.
If it was six o'clock, I would play operational games.
If it was twelve o'clock, I would play strategic games.

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 15

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 11:00:57 AM

Lobster

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Why when I was a young whippersnapper we had to actually read a large number of rules to even have a little idea of what we needed to do to play a war game, even a simple one. And we had to role dice. Yeah ROLL DICE!!! For combat results and then use our brains to figure out who to take off the paper map that we had to lay out on a table. Heck, we even had to place each and every piece on the map BY HAND! And I won't even mention beverages, cats and kids. Complicated? Pffft. The computer does most of the routine stuff for me so it's just what's more time consuming more than complicated.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 11:17:46 AM

MrsWargamer

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Well, you eventually answered your own question.

We demand games be Gary designs or the like, and we then wonder why they all have to be so complicated, but the moment something comes out that isn't, we deride it for being too 'simple'.

I personally think Battle Academy's perfection is its simple ease of use. But I'm always hearing it slagged for being 'cartoony'. Why the hate for cartoons? I think a game that can be played to completion in 1-3 hours has something that The mega-complex games can only dream of.

There are a few designs put out by Yobowargames which are really great for the desire to be 'not' complicated.
Joni Nuutinen has a series of designs called Conflict Series spanning many time periods, meant for tablet, but you can run them inside of a PC just fine with the correct software. Perfectly fine for lightweight goofing around.

The thing is, there ARE so many wargames, and unlike 1970, there is no limitation based on only a few companies making them.
Comically, the problem is, today we have too much money, not enough time.
You can basically afford more than you can play.

The best you can do is tell yourself, "there can be only one Number 1 title for any topic/setting/scale."
And you only pay that title.
We can wargame WW2 and the Russian Front in many ways. Russian Front board game by Avalon Hill is as good as Gary's War in the East. One requires a table, one won't suffer cats or dust and use up the table. One can be played on a weekend, and one might take you months. Pick one.

I can play Squad Leader or ASL or Tigers on the Hunt, or Steel Panthers or Battle Academy.
One costs a small fortune (you can get a car for less), one is free. One is brutally accurate, but a legal nightmare rule book is required. One is more or less idiotically simple to employ. Pick one.

They ALL suffer from "I wish I had a human opponent".
Which can be solved, if you really want to solve it.
Some will say "but I don't like..." But that's not the game's problem.

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 11:33:25 AM

Zovs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

All,

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Am I alone here?

This question has been asked before, I think it was first asked in 1964, 1969, 1972, 1980, 1993 and a few other years.

Back in 1964 when Avalon Hill produced Afrika Korps there were those that said "Really? Why make it more complicated then Tactics?". When James F. Dunnigan created Tactical Game 3 (the precursor to PanzerBlitz) in 1969 there was out cry of "Platoon level games with line of sight (LOS), do we really need to make war games more complicated?". Again in the 1970's games such as War in the East, War in Europe, War in the Pacific, The Next War, Highway to the Reich, all released by SPI there was outcry saying "Why make games so complicated?" Then in 1978 when Squad Leader came out there was more outcries of "Why make war games complicated?"

Again these are just a few examples of what happened in board war games and what is happening in computer war games.

What one should see from this list is that with out pushing the envelope and those that embrace the new technology, our games today would still be played on white maps, with squares instead of beautifully draw maps with hexagons and pink and blue counters instead of a vast array of color choices and more choices with rule systems then with the standard one page fit all rule styles.

Sure we need some simple games that are mindless time wasters (such as Simcity) but as a whole most war gamer's want a game that will challenge their intellect and allow them to explore history.

IMO

So I do think your alone in your belief.

< Message edited by Zovs -- 4/10/2020 11:35:09 AM >

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 2:04:06 PM

MrRoadrunner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

They ALL suffer from "I wish I had a human opponent".
Which can be solved, if you really want to solve it.
Some will say "but I don't like..." But that's not the game's problem.

You got that right!
Back in the day I used to play PanzerBlitz and PanzerLeader. Two board games that were the scale I liked. I used to play them all the time until I ran out of opponents. Seems playing a game over and over did not appeal to many of my friends. They floated between all the other available games. PB and Pl were relegated to a place in the closet.

When computers entered the scene I searched for something that hit "my sweet spot".
I found John Tiller/Campaign Series.
I had a few on line friends that wanted to play by e-mail. Then they too tired of the same game and I looked for opponents.

This week I surpassed 1,700 games on The Blitz web site. I guess I found my opponents?

I've been with the club for eighteen years. And, yes the game is older than that. But, it still works for me.
Thanks Matrix for purchasing the game all those years ago.

RR

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 2:23:23 PM

Objekt730

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Did you try something like Panzer Corps? This is fun and not too complicated. Number 2 is out now.
Have a look at Unity of Command or Warplan too.

Cheers

I find Order of Battle so much better than Panzer Corps, while retaining PzC's accessibility. I don't even know why people still like to play PzC when OOB is available. Interesting missions, logistics and supply, easy to get into. I recommend it for when you're not in the mood for a monster.

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Post #: 20

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 2:27:52 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

Absolutely.

Back in the day, I spent a fair amount of disposable income on 'beer 'n pretzels' sorts of games. I'm sure you're familiar with the likes of Panzer General, Pacific General, Fantasy General, Arcon, various first-person shooter games (DOOM, DOOM II, Quake, Unreal, Unreal Tournament, etc.)

When I stumbled on Uncommon Valor, that stopped. Then that led to War in the Pacific. I didn't buy another computer game for years. Then War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. The latter is the monster of all monsters. I can count the number of other games that I've paid money for on probably 4 fingers in the last 10 years. And after playing the new games a bit, I wander off, coming back to the franchise that I know and have spent 16 years generating competence in. For my entertainment value, WITP:AE has cost me fractions of a penny for each gaming hour spent. How could anything else compete?

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RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/10/2020 4:15:11 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

Absolutely.

Back in the day, I spent a fair amount of disposable income on 'beer 'n pretzels' sorts of games. I'm sure you're familiar with the likes of Panzer General, Pacific General, Fantasy General, Arcon, various first-person shooter games (DOOM, DOOM II, Quake, Unreal, Unreal Tournament, etc.)

When I stumbled on Uncommon Valor, that stopped. Then that led to War in the Pacific. I didn't buy another computer game for years. Then War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. The latter is the monster of all monsters. I can count the number of other games that I've paid money for on probably 4 fingers in the last 10 years. And after playing the new games a bit, I wander off, coming back to the franchise that I know and have spent 16 years generating competence in. For my entertainment value, WITP:AE has cost me fractions of a penny for each gaming hour spent. How could anything else compete?

Ask your wife and see what she says . . .

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Post #: 22

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/11/2020 1:17:44 PM

BeirutDude

Posts: 2625
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
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quote:

Why when I was a young whippersnapper we had to actually read a large number of rules to even have a little idea of what we needed to do to play a war game, even a simple one. And we had to role dice. Yeah ROLL DICE!!! For combat results and then use our brains to figure out who to take off the paper map that we had to lay out on a table. Heck, we even had to place each and every piece on the map BY HAND! And I won't even mention beverages, cats and kids. Complicated? Pffft. The computer does most of the routine stuff for me so it's just what's more time consuming more than complicated.

I'm with you, my first game was the original Battle of the Bulge by AH.

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Post #: 23

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/11/2020 5:16:33 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude
Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?...
Am I alone here?

+1. I have long questioned why we cannot have the old boardgame classics ported to the PC, as-is, with a decent computer opponent and editor. Old AH classics like Afrika Korps, Russian Campaign, Anzio, etc. Simple units with AF-MF, basic CRTs, etc. Should be easy enough to program and support. Provide the basic and advanced rules. If the developer wants to get fancy and add more optional complexity, then fine. But jeez, give us some decent games to PLAY, not WORK for.

That said, yes we could use more wargame classics, for fun. But we also need newer innovations for increased realism and historical accuracy that the PC can provide us, for those who want the additional complexity.

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Post #: 24

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/11/2020 5:36:32 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Objekt730

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Did you try something like Panzer Corps? This is fun and not too complicated. Number 2 is out now.
Have a look at Unity of Command or Warplan too.

Cheers

I find Order of Battle so much better than Panzer Corps, while retaining PzC's accessibility. I don't even know why people still like to play PzC when OOB is available. Interesting missions, logistics and supply, easy to get into. I recommend it for when you're not in the mood for a monster.

Never tried Order of Battle but thanks I will have a look.

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Post #: 25

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/11/2020 10:13:21 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I have long questioned why we cannot have the old boardgame classics ported to the PC, as-is, with a decent computer opponent and editor.

Such games do exist. Maybe not the ones you name, but I know at least accurate video game replicas made of HeroQuest and BattleTech. BattleTech replica game is here. And check out Tabletop Simulator. It might have something you're looking for.

< Message edited by Kuokkanen -- 4/11/2020 10:14:39 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/11/2020 11:11:09 PM

MrsWargamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude
Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?...
Am I alone here?

+1. I have long questioned why we cannot have the old boardgame classics ported to the PC, as-is, with a decent computer opponent and editor. Old AH classics like Afrika Korps, Russian Campaign, Anzio, etc. Simple units with AF-MF, basic CRTs, etc. Should be easy enough to program and support. Provide the basic and advanced rules. If the developer wants to get fancy and add more optional complexity, then fine. But jeez, give us some decent games to PLAY, not WORK for.

That said, yes we could use more wargame classics, for fun. But we also need newer innovations for increased realism and historical accuracy that the PC can provide us, for those who want the additional complexity.

Sadly, too many of our beloved classics, are the property of a company no one likes to speak of kindly.
We don't call them Hasborg for nothing.
They won't let anyone touch the titles, and they don't want to do anything with them.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

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Post #: 27

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/12/2020 1:49:49 AM

demyansk

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I just started playing The Hunters 1939-43 solitaire game. Little different than a PC. Complicated for me reading all these rules,

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 28

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/12/2020 2:01:16 AM

Pvt_Grunt

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/13/2007
From: Frankston Victoria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Yeah, I have Panzer Corps and that was too simplistic for my tastes.

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

YES. I tend to play 1 game only for about 3 months. I dont jump from game to game much, nor do I try every game that comes out.

_____________________________

(in reply to BeirutDude)

Post #: 29

RE: Game complication, a detrement to the hobby? - 4/12/2020 6:31:01 AM

IslandInland

Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline

Detriment not detrement.