Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The virus arrived at many US cities at the same time or earlier than it arrived in NY. Those other cities didn't experience massive outbreaks, either due to luck or some combination of other factors. Given your concerns, other cities already should have had raging outbreaks.

And Michigan isn't close to NYC. From NYC to Detroit is 614 miles - about the same as from London to Berlin.

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ORIGINAL: 22sec

Two weeks ago they were calling for the President to institute a nationwide lockdown. Now they are claiming the President doesn’t have the authority to reopen the country. 🤷🏻‍♂️

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The virus arrived at many US cities at the same time or earlier than it arrived in NY. Those other cities didn't experience massive outbreaks, either due to luck or some combination of other factors. Given your concerns, other cities already should have had raging outbreaks.

And Michigan isn't close to NYC. From NYC to Detroit is 614 miles - about the same as from London to Berlin.

I think that if you look right to the beginning the picture might be a little misleading. Remember that the virus started in China and so initially would have been coming into the US from the West Coast. I'd suggest that is why you have early start dates for places like Washington State and California. Your president took a lot of criticism for shutting down the flights in from China but it seems to me that from that perspective at least he was ahead of the curve and gave you another month or so before it started breaking out again in earnest on the East Coast fueled by infections coming from Europe (at what point were flights stopped from Italy and Spain?).

In terms of deaths/million - New York is worse than any of the European countries on 513. You then have Spain Italy and Belgium on c.350, New Jersey/France on c.250, and then Louisiana, Connecticut, Michigan and the UK on c.160-180. Massachusetts is on c120. For me that (Louisiana aside) gives support to a suggestion that the US might actually be dealing with its second outbreak.

I'm finishing my lunch break now and will have to come back to any responses this evening.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled



Of course some of the criticism is political, but a hell of a lot of it appears to be justified.

UK/US did something different, and the result is, well, out there for all to see.

Whether you are a Democrat, Republican, Green, labour, Tory, Lib Dem (thats me!), SNP whatever, you want to make sure the lessons from this are learnt.

To do that, you have to acknowledge mistakes.

Now if anyone thinks both the UK and the US are doing that (certainly at government level) then I'm yet to see it.

Somebody should have banned wet markets after SARS

The f****** Chicoms should not have lied to cover up the problem

The WHO should not have whored themselves out to cover the Chicoms

All flights out of China to ANYWHERE should have been banned in early January or even late December

The US should have gone on lockdown earlier but nuking the economy is a BIG decision

Miami should have banned Spring Break

New Orleans should have banned Mardi Gras

The NFL should have cancelled a live Super Bowl

The NBA should have shut down a month earlier

NY should have shut down their mass transit.

People should have followed the shutdown rules better

Lee should not have attacked the Union center on day 3

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Protesters, anti-quarantine groups call for end to coronavirus closures
04/14/20 11:48 AM EDT


https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/492693-protesters-call-for-an-end-to-coronavirus-closures


"Growing unrest from coronavirus “stay at home” orders in place across the country have resulted in organized protests and the creation of anti-quarantine organizations across the nation."

"Anthony Fauci, the nation’s leading infectious disease expert and member of the administration’s coronavirus task force, has said gradual reductions of coronavirus restrictions could happen in some parts of the country as soon as next month.

“We are hoping at the end of the month we can look around and say, 'Is there any element here we can safely and cautiously start pulling back on?'” Fauci said on CNN’s “State of the Union” Sunday. “If so, do it. If not, then just continue to hunker down.”

Fauci has also said that the U.S. can expect to see “a real degree of normalcy” by November."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Those are good points, BBfanboy, but perceptions will be hard to quantify. "We could have done better" is always the case, and finger pointing will be at a premium given our current environment. Analysis and self analysis will be done but it'll be a messy, imprecise exercise.

Deaths/M offers one way to measure impact. And, reading back through this thread, you'll see that there have many predictions that various US cities and states and regions were destined to suffer severe outbreaks. Those predictions were made despite distances and densities in population. But that didn't happen.

I understand your point and agree that dispersity may have been our biggest advantage. In that case, though, its hard to compare NYC against Arkansas or Tucumcari, New Mexico. Or Germany to the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Encircled, I don't follow. The only way to measure country to country is by deaths/M. That measure puts things into perspective.

I disagree with the country to country comparison as the best standard - the US and Canada have huge territorial dispersion of the population that is not the norm for the world. We will be judged on whether we could have done better by recognizing the danger sooner, acting sooner and coordinating effectively both within our country and in cooperation with the rest of the world.

We share knowledge with other countries, I don't understand why we cannot coordinate/cooperate at the policy and equipment levels, and maybe staffing levels to some extent too. We share forest fire/wildfire equipment and personnel with countries as far away as Australia, why not work to suppress this beast worldwide?

Yeah, I understand that politics drives a lot of the local decisions, often for the worse because politicians want to assure people that the problem can be handled locally and they (the politicians) are the ones who can fix it for them. But I think it will not go away long-term until it is handled worldwide. With all the communication tools we have these days it should be easy to coordinate a response if there was a will to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks, Encircled for this: "Pretty obvious that those of us from Europe are anti-Trump, but that doesn't mean we are anti-american."

I wondered about that but didn't wish to articulate it. It helps put our forum community into better context. It might help both "sides" going forward.

In the US, the electorate is divided roughly in half. That's probably true for US members of the Forum too. When you add in UK and other folks who may be anti-Trump, the forum as a whole may lean decidedly that way.

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ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

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ORIGINAL: Encircled

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Encircled, I don't follow. The only way to measure country to country is by deaths/M. That measure puts things into perspective.

And we are still going to be well below Germany.

Hans Bolter leapt off the deep end and implied it was anti-american to question what both our countries have done. (edit, its obviously not anti-american to question UK stuff!)

I don't think that helps when we both clearly have questions to answer.

(I leave it here btw as I don't want to get into a row over this now we've both made our points)

Anti-American is Anti-American no matter how you try to cloak it.
Please show me wear I accused some one of being anti-American for asking a simple question.
You will likely find that the so called question was composed in a manner that lectured and or postured an anti-American position in the process of asking what became a not so simple question because of the manner in which it was couched.

The claims of innocence when we are all quite capable of reading the innuendo is something I find to be reprehensible.

Being anti-Trump is not anti-american. Pretty obvious that those of us from Europe are anti-Trump, but that doesn't mean we are anti-american. I'm certainly of the opinion that one country tends to be top dog, and its better being the US than the alternatives.

We are all students of history ffs, we all know the dangers of unquestionable belief in what the state is doing is right.

Questioning that is an essential part of our democracy, especially at times like this.

(Appreciate this is political, so happy to stop now I've made my point of view in regards to being called "anti-american")

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Posts are pouring in at the moment, so this post is likely to follow something I haven't read yet. But just wanted to note that we've veered strongly into politics again. There's enough overlap that it's bound to happen, from time to time. For now, I'm going to err on the side of refraining from political discussion as, to this point, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything worthwhile.

quote:


Effective Sunday, February 2nd at 5:00 PM EST, Americans flying to the United States from China will be re-routed to the following airports at no cost to the traveler:

John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York
Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD), Illinois
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), California
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), Washington
Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL), Hawaii
Los Angeles International Airport, (LAX), California
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Georgia
Washington-Dulles International Airport (IAD), Virginia

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Starving, angry and cannibalistic: America's rats are getting desperate amid coronavirus pandemic
14 hrs ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/newsfeature/starving-angry-and-cannibalistic-americas-rats-are-getting-desperate-amid-coronavirus-pandemic/ar-BB12ArzM?li=BBnbcA0


"As millions of Americans shelter indoors to combat the deadly virus, which has claimed over 21,000 U.S. lives, many businesses — including restaurants and grocery stores — have closed or limited operations, cutting off many rodents' main sources for food. On deserted streets across the country, rats are in dire survival mode, experts say."

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Encircled, I don't follow. The only way to measure country to country is by deaths/M. That measure puts things into perspective.

And we are still going to be well below Germany.

Hans Bolter leapt off the deep end and implied it was anti-american to question what both our countries have done. (edit, its obviously not anti-american to question UK stuff!)

I don't think that helps when we both clearly have questions to answer.

(I leave it here btw as I don't want to get into a row over this now we've both made our points)

Anti-American is Anti-American no matter how you try to cloak it.
Please show me wear I accused some one of being anti-American for asking a simple question.
You will likely find that the so called question was composed in a manner that lectured and or postured an anti-American position in the process of asking what became a not so simple question because of the manner in which it was couched.

The claims of innocence when we are all quite capable of reading the innuendo is something I find to be reprehensible.

Being anti-Trump is not anti-american. Pretty obvious that those of us from Europe are anti-Trump, but that doesn't mean we are anti-american. I'm certainly of the opinion that one country tends to be top dog, and its better being the US than the alternatives.

We are all students of history ffs, we all know the dangers of unquestionable belief in what the state is doing is right.

Questioning that is an essential part of our democracy, especially at times like this.

(Appreciate this is political, so happy to stop now I've made my point of view in regards to being called "anti-american")

At least half of America is anti-Trump and at least half of those who are also happen to be anti-American.

I couldn't care less who has, or has not contracted TDS.

I'm referring to the implicit, structural, anti-American bias that seems to be indigenous to many non-Americans while those affected by it are almost unaware they are even engaging in it. I'm talking about statements like the one made by Obvert that the 'discussion becomes especially productive when it becomes international'. It's a simple underhanded 'dig' implying that it isn't especially productive when its domestic. This is the kind of inherent bias that people don't even notice they are practicing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Posts are pouring in at the moment, so this post is likely to follow something I haven't read yet. But just wanted to note that we've veered strongly into politics again. There's enough overlap that it's bound to happen, from time to time. For now, I'm going to err on the side of refraining from political discussion as, to this point, it doesn't seem to accomplish anything worthwhile.

At least it's been fairly innocuous political veering, without vitriol. But yes, +1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Starving, angry and cannibalistic: America's rats are getting desperate amid coronavirus pandemic
14 hrs ago

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/newsfeature/starving-angry-and-cannibalistic-americas-rats-are-getting-desperate-amid-coronavirus-pandemic/ar-BB12ArzM?li=BBnbcA0


"As millions of Americans shelter indoors to combat the deadly virus, which has claimed over 21,000 U.S. lives, many businesses — including restaurants and grocery stores — have closed or limited operations, cutting off many rodents' main sources for food. On deserted streets across the country, rats are in dire survival mode, experts say."

Feed them cornmeal - mixed with powdered cement!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: 22sec

Two weeks ago they were calling for the President to institute a nationwide lockdown. Now they are claiming the President doesn’t have the authority to reopen the country. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Because he didn't do any nationwide lockdown, so he can't lift it.

If he had, he could.

That's federalism for ya.