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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Tech Support >> reaction Page: [1]
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reaction - 7/27/2003 12:06:38 AM   
decourcy

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Okay, what is up with our moronic carrier task forces?

I, as the allies, saw a Jap carrier task force out of my range to the north, I used that turn to hit his transports at GC. The next turn since my aircraft were tired, I retired to Noumea, set my aircraft to stand down, and my task force to 'no react'. I knew my task force was just as fast as his so I could withdraw fast enough to stay away from him. I was one move north of Noumea.

So, what happens in the replay? My task force night moves towards Noumea then as soon as dawn hits I start REACTING towards his carriers!!!

Don't tell me this actually happened in the war, or it was just chance! that is just BS! All our pilots are drinking tea and the Admiral, who was cautious by the way, decides to sail towards his carriers!

Is this a known bug? Will this be in WitP? If so I have no interest in buying it.

Mike

_____________________________

Tae Kwon Leep is the Wine of Purity
not the Vinegar of Hostility.
Post #: 1
- 7/27/2003 9:31:50 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		I think you were caught by his React to Enemy order.

If your [I]opponent[/I] was using [U]React to Enemy[/U], then this section of rule 8.6 (on Page 27) applies:[QUOTE]8.6 Mission Types and Their Impact on Movement

The mission descriptions in these tables include:

- React to Enemy Carriers - The TF, as long as it is not following another friendly TF, will move during a Day movement phase towards spotted enemy carriers in an Air Combat TF in order to attempt to get within range to launch an airstrike. This will only happen if the enemy TF begins the Day movement phase greater than 6 hexes and less than 18 hexes distant from the reacting TF. The reacting TF will move at cruising speed and move directly towards the nearest spotted enemy Air Combat TF containing a carrier, attempting to get to a point 4 hexes short of the starting position of the enemy TF.[/QUOTE]
Also, are you talking about the "one step" reaction. If opposing CV's are close enough, they will make one hex moves toward each other.[QUOTE]8.23 Special Aircraft Carrier Movement
Air Combat Task Forces that have not aborted their mission and have at least 20 aircraft may automatically move one hex towards an enemy air combat TF after each air search phase. Allied Task Forces between 5 and 9 hexes of the enemy will automatically move and Japanese Task Forces either 8 or 9 hexes from the enemy will automatically move.[/QUOTE]

If an opposing CV TF is close enough, it's really hard to escape it.

You were hunted...

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
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CVB Langley:

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 2
- 7/27/2003 9:45:44 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
[B]I think you were caught by his React to Enemy order.

If your [I]opponent[/I] was using [U]React to Enemy[/U], then this section of rule 8.6 (on Page 27) applies:
Also, are you talking about the "one step" reaction. If opposing CV's are close enough, they will make one hex moves toward each other.

If an opposing CV TF is close enough, it's really hard to escape it.

You were hunted... [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe Decourcy is disputing the mechanics, not the execution of the programming.

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 3
- 7/27/2003 9:52:20 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]I believe Decourcy is disputing the mechanics, not the execution of the programming. [/B][/QUOTE] Agreed. I wanted to make sure I understood what kind of reaction he was talking about.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 4
Re: reaction - 7/27/2003 11:27:24 PM   
ADavidB


Posts: 2464
Joined: 9/17/2001
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by decourcy
[B]Okay, what is up with our moronic carrier task forces?

I, as the allies, saw a Jap carrier task force out of my range to the north, I used that turn to hit his transports at GC. The next turn since my aircraft were tired, I retired to Noumea, set my aircraft to stand down, and my task force to 'no react'. I knew my task force was just as fast as his so I could withdraw fast enough to stay away from him. I was one move north of Noumea.

So, what happens in the replay? My task force night moves towards Noumea then as soon as dawn hits I start REACTING towards his carriers!!!

Don't tell me this actually happened in the war, or it was just chance! that is just BS! All our pilots are drinking tea and the Admiral, who was cautious by the way, decides to sail towards his carriers!

Is this a known bug? Will this be in WitP? If so I have no interest in buying it.

Mike [/B][/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, this is a "design feature" in UV. As I understand it, this is to simulate the standing orders to the carrier admirals to "get" the enemy carrier TFs.

This wouldn't be bad in itself, but the design bias of Grigsby, et al to make the US carrier TFs totally uncompetitive towards the Japanese carrier TFs in 1942 makes any reaction against carriers on the US TF forces part simply suicide.

The same design bias existed in Pacwar, so I'm expecting it to show up in WitP too. The only thing you can do is live with it and do the following "gamey" fixes :

1 - Put "cautious" admirals in charge of your carrier TFs

2 - Always leave some percentage cap for your fighters

3 - Always set your carriers to "don't react" and set their "destinations" far from the front when moving away

4 - Run away as soon as you get any indication that Japanese carrier TFs have entered the theater - don't wait to be "spotted" by Judys or Vals - it's too late then

5 - Have other weak TFs around, particularly oilers, to attract the Japanese air strikes.

6 - If you have to face up to a Japanese Air TF before 1943, make certain that you have land-based air between you and the Japanese.

Like I said, all the above is gamey and historically stupid, but it's GG's game and as you mentioned, if we don't like the rules we have to "play somewhere else".

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 5
Re: Re: reaction - 7/28/2003 12:34:59 AM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ADavidB
[B]Unfortunately, this is a "design feature" in UV. As I understand it, this is to simulate the standing orders to the carrier admirals to "get" the enemy carrier TFs.

This wouldn't be bad in itself, but the design bias of Grigsby, et al to make the US carrier TFs totally uncompetitive towards the Japanese carrier TFs in 1942 makes any reaction against carriers on the US TF forces part simply suicide.

The same design bias existed in Pacwar, so I'm expecting it to show up in WitP too. The only thing you can do is live with it and do the following "gamey" fixes :

1 - Put "cautious" admirals in charge of your carrier TFs

2 - Always leave some percentage cap for your fighters

3 - Always set your carriers to "don't react" and set their "destinations" far from the front when moving away

4 - Run away as soon as you get any indication that Japanese carrier TFs have entered the theater - don't wait to be "spotted" by Judys or Vals - it's too late then

5 - Have other weak TFs around, particularly oilers, to attract the Japanese air strikes.

6 - If you have to face up to a Japanese Air TF before 1943, make certain that you have land-based air between you and the Japanese.

Like I said, all the above is gamey and historically stupid, but it's GG's game and as you mentioned, if we don't like the rules we have to "play somewhere else".

Dave Baranyi [/B][/QUOTE]

Couple this with version 2.3's "improved" naval targetting which has made LBA ineffective against CV TFs, since they will not launch strikes against a target with significant CAP.

So as soon as the IJN gets the "Super CV TF" assembled, it can dance around the map blowing anything and everything away.

The same happens later to the Japanese with the Allied "Super CV TF".

_____________________________


"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 6
React - 7/28/2003 12:48:46 AM   
decourcy

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Thanks for the replys.

What you are missing is that the react button is pointless... SC task forces do not react except in VERY limited circumstances and carrier TF's always react, what else is there? It is not like its a choice for your transport TF's!

Remove the button, it does nothing!

Admiral Dadman,

MY task force started 1000 miles south of his carriers, that turn my SBD's & Wildcats raided at long range against his transports at Lunga. Great. The next turn I am 1000 miles south of his carriers and my Wildcats have 45 fatigue because of the long range they flew yesterday. So, I decide to sail back south to Noumea and set to no react.

That replay starts at night of course, my carriers move 5 hexes south, and I assume his carriers move 5 hexes south. Next, daylight hits. My carriers stop moving south and start reacting one hex north. They did this twice. Now, I measured the distances and if my carriers had moved 5 hexes further south instead of 2 hexes north I would not have been hit.

If my 'cautious' commander is going to say 'hey there are some carriers, lets go kill them' against my orders you would think he would also launch aircraft against my orders.

This is a moronic design decision and it needs to be fixed. Or they could fix the fatigue rules... hm lets see my C47's fly 450 miles against no opposition and end up with 47 fatigue after one day, while my bombers fly 2 strikes at 600 miles against a CAP and come back with 39 fatigue. Hmmm....
The funny thing is that fatigue doesn't get much worse than that first day. I can easily go from 0 to 40 but if I fly those same planes the next day I will end up with 55 or so. Why? I have tested this against no opposition so maybe 1 plane is operationaly damaged after the first day.

I wish they would quit tinkering with air combat and fix the actual flaws in the game. And remove the non-functional react button.

Mike

_____________________________

Tae Kwon Leep is the Wine of Purity
not the Vinegar of Hostility.

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 7
Re: React - 7/28/2003 2:27:05 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by decourcy
[B]...Admiral Dadman,

MY task force started 1000 miles south of his carriers, that turn my SBD's & Wildcats raided at long range against his transports at Lunga. Great. The next turn I am 1000 miles south of his carriers and my Wildcats have 45 fatigue because of the long range they flew yesterday. So, I decide to sail back south to Noumea and set to no react.
...[/B][/QUOTE]"1000 miles". That's 33 hexes.

Truk to Lunga is 38 hexes (1140 mi.).

Rabaul to Lunga is 23 hexes (690 mi.).

Is it fair to assume that he was loitering around Rabaul, and you were 9 hexes SSE of Lunga? That would put you about 960 mi. apart.

If he decided to intercept you after you pummelled Lunga, according to the game mechanics, it is conceivable that he overtook you because he was sprinting toward you (flank speed 11 hex/impulse), and you were simply retiring (at cruising speed 5 h/i). His settings would have been "Retirement Allowed" and "React to Enemy" with a DH somewhere near Lunga, which would allow him to sprint in.

If the above is true, then his "React" function kicked in, and he continued to close the gap to where the 8.23 rule kicked in, and your TF stopped to turn and fight.

The way the movement system is set up does not allow an Allied CV TF to perform "Hit and Run" raids, which is a major disadvantage to the Allied Player.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 8
1 hex reaction - 7/28/2003 4:56:38 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, The 1 hex reaction is only used against enemy TF that have ALREADY launched a strike against the TF's that react. (The reaction move is an attempt to launch a counter strike)
The Japanese can hit you from 9-10 hexes away.

Surface reaction works fine. But it only applies to TF within range of a friendly base hex that has an enemy TF move there. So if your TF's or not reacting to enemy TF's bombarding or unloading on your bases check and make sure the base is within the movement circle.

Also TF's running from enemy aircombat TF's will still have to stop to refuel if only 1 ship runs low.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 9
exageration - 7/28/2003 6:45:04 AM   
decourcy

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Hi all,

so I exagerated; I was about 450 miles south of him. I guess I just wished that if my Admirals can change my movement orders they would also activate the aircraft on my side.

Mogami,

I have had (accidentally) a transport task force move through a supplied enemy SC task force loitering south of Gili. With no response. That is fine, that is the design decision they chose to make but, my point is that the reaction button should just be removed as it does not matter how it is set.

I agree, the way this game is set up the Allies might as well send their carriers back to Pearl because you cannot raid. You will be drawn into combat against your will and if your planes have so much as launched once your fatigue will make your aircaft useless.

I honestly feel that is why so many people are getting such odd results in air-to-air combat. Many players are attempting to play 'history' not the game and thus they fly their aircraft 5 days out of 7 and expect them to perform fairly well. But the fatigue system is screwed. It allows many gameisms such as raiding a base the turn after you saw them raid one of your bases. That way you will either face no CAP or you will slaughter his CAP as 25-40 fatigue aircraft have virtually no combat effect in air-to-air combat. Curiously enough, 28 fatigue naval bombers still hit targets fairly well.

Mike

_____________________________

Tae Kwon Leep is the Wine of Purity
not the Vinegar of Hostility.

(in reply to decourcy)
Post #: 10
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