RE: AI and supporting his troops !

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RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 9:16:05 AM

FlashXAron_slith

Posts: 139
Joined: 5/14/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus

Imagine the admin strain as well, most of those assets look to be outside the 6 hex range. Looking at the agridome outputs I'm guessing a 40% production penalty even if the governor is 0% relations and has no relevant skills...

He's setting half his output on fire before it even gets to the zone stockpile. There's 40,000 people working in agriculture producing 1300 food - that Agridome 4 should put out that much on it's own for 10,000 fewer workers.

There's so many alarm bells ringing about the management here that the AI probably really doesn't need any minor cheats to win this one tbh.

idiot, there was an worker shortage, as suddenly 30000 people decided to go to the other town, even there has been terrible conditions there and always travelling 5000 between both cities ...

everything the AI hasn't to handle
and the AI needs that cheats or it wouldn't survive 10 turns atm, with the same rules ...

(in reply to Naselus)

Post #: 31

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 9:34:50 AM

eddieballgame

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline

I can't imagine an AI playing a game this complex (without help) for $40.
Not to disrespect the 'devs' efforts, though I would like the option to 'tweak the cheats'.
Presently, I need all the help I can get.

(in reply to Cornuthaum)

Post #: 32

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 9:48:46 AM

Smidlee

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/24/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith

morons , I am winning the game ...

THE THREAD IS ABOUT
for all who don't understand it ONCE again
it is about

"CHEATING OF THE AI and not using the same rules"

at normal settings anyone expects that AI opponents use the same rules.
And yes I know, all that morons, who want to show, how good they are, are showing up
in such thread and it happens in every strategy game ...

I really don't care, if you are able to beat any strategy game at any unfair settings,
but if I want to play that way, I would play an endless "beat the wave" game or "tower defense" and look how many turns I could survive ... so go and play that games and don't write anything in a thread , where the topic is,

once again
the topic is about
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CHEATING AI (no supply lines, no distance rules, all resources out of thin air and a lot more)
and that there should be a setting, when someone starts a game, where we could decide, what we want and what not !
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

and would be even cool for all that overcool gamers, if there are such settings, you could change to "godlike" and tell us how fabulous you are, that you still beat it ...

Anyway if that settings and AI will make it to STEAM , it will have a lot of worse reviews
as normal gamers want at least ONE setting, where the AI isn't cheating ...

I going to paste what i wrote in the steam forum:
"Most single player video games comes down to timing and pattern recognition with sometimes randomness to change things up. AI is never about fairness from Super Mario Brothers to Pacman to strategy games like this one. Once you get your timing down and recognized patterns in the AI then you need to add to AI numbers and/or bonuses to make the game challenging. For example Pacman the ghost gets faster and the power pellets last shorter. Randomness can both add to the challenge but also can make the game easier as seen in many rogue-like.

A lot of strategy games becomes easier mid-game which ends up just mopping up to finish the win. In Shadow Empires at least the victory is set to reduce the mop-up phase. A few strategy games tries to add more mid-game challenge as in Rome:TW where the other Roman factions declare war on you. Another example, AI Wars the AI becomes more aggressive sending larger waves and doesn't pretend the AI is fair nor play by the same rules."

The AI is a set of instructions and has no intelligence. I don't understand why gamers thinks AI must to be "fair" in strategy games when it almost never in other types of games. Even in Risk where the AI is playing by the same rules the AI are programed to gang up on the player to make it challenging.

(in reply to FlashXAron_slith)

Post #: 33

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:01:34 AM

achim123

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/17/2018
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Dear FlashXAron_slith,

if the program dont cheat (i dont call it AI, because its a simple programm) you would easly beat it. Its always the same with computer games. The power of a computer is "comparing numbers" not thinking.

Why can a chess programm beat you? Because its an AI? Super intelligent and super smart?
As a human you look at the chess board, and start moving the pieces around in your brain. At some point time runs out or your brain cant memorize all the solutions you found. You make a decision at what you have got. And as a beginner you are always wrong ;-)

The computer do the same, BUT in the time you look at 20 possible solution the computer can look at 20.000 solutions and memorize them all. After time runs out, he choose "the best" from 20.000 solutions.
Strip the computer down to 20 possible solutions, he is dump as **** because he cant find/choose from the other 19.980 solutions. Thats the power of a computer. Compare giant amounts of data in a very short time period.

Chess is easy, the number of options are fenite because of the rules. The "problem" with shadow empire is, its a complex game for a computer (to many options).

The only way to get an equal opponent in complex games is to give the computer an advance. One way is to lessen the options for the computer (road costs no money, no stratgems, no logistic network, give more ressources, ... as examples). Thats the cheating.
If we want all that rules for the programm too, it cost us something ... processing time. The computer has to consider all the rules to find solutions and that costs processing time (comparing numbers). And the equation is simple, more processing time means a better solution.

FlashXAron_slith, i dont say you are wrong, the computer is cheating. I try to exlain why the developers build in this "cheating" and whats the problem if the computer doesnt cheat with the same rules.

Edit:
There is a discusion in the form "Anyone think end turn takes too long?". Thats an example for processing time.

< Message edited by achim123 -- 6/14/2020 10:19:00 AM >

(in reply to FlashXAron_slith)

Post #: 34

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:03:36 AM

Smidlee

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/24/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
I am planning to tune down this free dirt roads rule in the weeks to come. I might even go so far as to put it on an equal footing with human players. There has been much rucos about this advantage and I am willing to listen to the player base here.

Best wishes,
Vic

I find this complaint (AI cheats) in most strategy games on steam forums including the AI can see the map. If you programed Deepmind to play Shadow Empire like Starcraft2 using cheesy tactics to beat 99% of the players you would then have complaints the AI is unbeatable. I might be one of those who complain. I love to play chess with a human player but hate playing it against a search engine that never makes a tactical error in the plys it's searches.
The real challenge of any TBS is to keep the game challenging mid-game.

P.S I would like the option to remove roads the AI puts down.

< Message edited by Smidlee -- 6/14/2020 10:10:18 AM >

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 35

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:24:15 AM

Noldofinwe

Posts: 37
Joined: 5/15/2015
Status: offline

quote:

P.S I would like the option to remove roads the AI puts down.

Check out the latest beta patch, Vic added this feature

(in reply to Smidlee)

Post #: 36

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:27:45 AM

ernieschwitz

Posts: 3893
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From: Denmark
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I am always wary of someone who uses CAPS LOCK to make a point, and call people names... Maybe that is just me. I don't see how it furthers discussion.

As for the AI Cheating, name me one game, of complixity high enough, that is where players get many options of different natures, that the AI uses exactly the same rules as the player. I am betting there are none, and that you are only being tricked to think, that it isn't so.

(in reply to Noldofinwe)

Post #: 37

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:45:57 AM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
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The AI definitely cheats with infinite supply range, but I personally don't have a problem with it. I just had to learn that the only way to cut the AI off is to completely surround him. Although, sometimes it seems like he cares about his supply roads and will pull back when I zone them, but more often than not, this move just costs me the game cause he breaks through the front line and takes my capital. This generally has an impact only on early game. Later on, whatever, I got tanks and the Cult of LIS is on my side.

Anyway, my point is, it's not that bad really. Just pretend it's a minor and thank the God of LIS for making it so that Majors at least respect your borders. Cause the last thing you need is another Minor regime stealing your stuff.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 38

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:47:18 AM

Naselus

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/12/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith
idiot, there was an worker shortage, as suddenly 30000 people decided to go to the other town, even there has been terrible conditions there and always travelling 5000 between both cities ...

everything the AI hasn't to handle
and the AI needs that cheats or it wouldn't survive 10 turns atm, with the same rules ...

The worker shortage doesn't explain the full production penalty that your buildings are suffering. You're about 20% short of workers, but your output is being cut by nearly 50%. Either your governor for this zone absolutely hates you and has no production-related skills, or else you've got enormous admin strain eating away at your output totals - mostly being caused by all those tiny truck stops in the arse end of nowhere.

And you mostly have a worker shortage because you've managed your assets poorly - you have half a dozen unnecessary truck stations, and you have added extra buildings to the zone in a way that damages the output of your existing buildings. Run well, you could probably shut down enough buildings to eliminate the worker shortfall and still get the same output.

And this is relevant because I think it explains why you think this is such a big deal and most of the rest of us simply don't. If you run your logi network efficiently, then all the AI basically gets to skip out on building, staffing, fueling and upgrading a truck stop in each city centre, which is not a big advantage after the first 10 turns or so - but if you run your logi network like this, with hundreds of tiny truck stops everywhere and very few overstretched zones, then sure it looks like a much bigger advantage. But it's mostly because you're being incredibly inefficient. Many of the buildings that you're complaining the AI is getting to 'avoid' building should never have been built by you either.

(in reply to FlashXAron_slith)

Post #: 39

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:53:44 AM

WeaverofBrokenThreads

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Just to clarify, you should definitely get this game; the logistics and AI rules are really not as bad as people make them to seem. On regular, it is very well balanced. As for other difficulties, I get spanked more often than not, even by Minor regimes, but that has nothing to do with the AI logistics or anything.

(in reply to Naselus)

Post #: 40

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 12:13:50 PM

MC456

Posts: 66
Joined: 11/9/2018
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It took humanity so long to build a Chess AI to beat the world's best player, and that was at a game that is about a billion times simpler than Shadow Empire where each piece has one move style on average. Keep in mind it's no easy task to create an AI that plays by the rules and is equally challenging to top tier players in games like this. There's a reason why developers give their AIs some "cheats" in order to pose a challenge.

With all that said, I look forward to the day when advanced neural-net driven AI is common among every video game. I think it will revolutionize the gaming scene. It will be even more revolutionary once we get intelligent AI that we can actually talk to when it comes to making diplomatic deals in 4X games. :)
Though constantly subjugating AIs in video games might give them the wrong idea about humanity.

(in reply to Cornuthaum)

Post #: 41

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 12:31:34 PM

shi4stone

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/19/2009
Status: offline

I dont understand the complaints about AI cheating. Whatelse do you expect? an AI that can handle a game this complex as good as human? are you living in the sci/fi universe and expect a shadow? As long as the AI can hide its cheat through smart mechanism and create a balanced and enjoyable experience then it is as good as one can get from any 4x game. And i think this game is doing very well on that front. The only exception is AI road construction not because it is free but rather it creates spaghetti network and become too visible to human player

(in reply to MC456)

Post #: 42

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 12:43:10 PM

Ayus

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/5/2020
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Sorry but i dont know what you are doing with your supply. In my current game my eastern Army is 30(!) Hexes away from my Truck Station (IV) and in green (2 yellow) supply.
Also i only have 6 traffic signs right now (will be more once i conquer the AI though), 3 of which i have in my capital to select the priority of my supply flow.
All of my troops on the map, 5 Brigades and many Militia+Independent except 2 militia units are in good supply.
So i guess you should not flame the system as an excuse that you obviously play suboptimal.
Yes, the AI might have a small advantage, but its not really disturbing in my point of view. Even in my first game, where i still had BIG supply problems because i did not know how the system worked, i wasnt mad about the AI. Well, my games till now are only on beginner/regular difficulty. Maybe it gets worse on Hard+. Will definetly see after i win my regular game.

TLDR: Plan more supply efficient and with traffic signs. That will fix your supply problems and wont make you blame the AI for having massive advantages. Because it hasnt. Its like saying an easy bot in Counter Strike is cheating with WallHack+Aim Bot...just because your reaction time and aim is too bad.

Wish i could add a Screenshot, but i can not. If you want one i can send it to you. Maybe Links are allowed in PMs?

< Message edited by Ayus -- 6/14/2020 12:50:18 PM >

(in reply to shi4stone)

Post #: 43

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 2:03:17 PM

willgamer

Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I am always wary of someone who uses CAPS LOCK to make a point, and call people names... Maybe that is just me. I don't see how it furthers discussion.

As for the AI Cheating, name me one game, of complixity high enough, that is where players get many options of different natures, that the AI uses exactly the same rules as the player. I am betting there are none, and that you are only being tricked to think, that it isn't so.

ME TOO!

"Cheating" is a loaded word to intentionally cast dispersion on the game. Strategic AI's get advantages... every time... full stop.

How many times has perception been the biggest problem?

If the AI built no roads at all, I wonder if the subject would get so much attention?

p.s. name calling does not help your arguments

_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 44

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 2:22:19 PM

nadia911

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/24/2009
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Perfect!

(in reply to shi4stone)

Post #: 45

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 3:52:35 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cornuthaum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frostwave

If the AI struggles too much without this advantage I say leave it in. If Vic can make the AI competent as far having it follow the same rules for logistics that we have to use then I'm for it.

I just imagine they have able leaders keeping the supplies flowing so doesn't bother me at all. What would bother me is if they cant hold their own anymore. I can manage my logistics just fine and so can most people after doing some research on the subject(not a slight on anyone just saying it seems like AI currently are not capable so would be too huge of an advantage to remove it at the moment); I don't want changes that will impair the AI's ability to wage war. We have too many advantages over AI enemies as it is.

Well said. It's more important to have an AI that can hold its own in a fight than it is to try - and inevitably fail - to make a human-level AI (because any videogame dev that could do that should just sell it to their military or corporate entity of choice :X)

(in reply to Cornuthaum)

Post #: 46

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 3:56:32 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
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From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

FlashXAron_slith, no need to call people "morons" and "idiots."

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 47

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 4:08:42 PM

Grotius

Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline

I agree. There's no need for name-calling.

The manual is quite clear that the AI gets various advantages. In fact, it's far more open about this than most strategy games. I knew this when I bought the game, and I don't mind it at all. It's giving me a good game, and that's the important thing to me.

_____________________________

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 48

RE: AI cheating and supporting AI troops ! CONFIRMED - 6/14/2020 7:18:40 PM

Dampfnudel

Posts: 126
Joined: 2/27/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith

CONCLUSION OF THAT DISCUSSION : QUESTION for the Devs @Vic

WILL WE EVER GET AN AI, which is able to play with the same rules as the human player ????

----> ANSWER
I am planning to tune down this free dirt roads rule in the weeks to come. I might even go so far as to put it on an equal footing with human players. There has been much rucos about this advantage and I am willing to listen to the player base here.

Best wishes,
Vic

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Okay after over 120 turns in my "slow" game ...

my troops ... even tried it with the cheapest "foot troops" hate it, when they are more than 7 hexes away from any Truck Station :-) ... so alway have to build one , depending on terrain, every 6th hex or so ... no problem ...
...
BUT that damn AI is driving around with his troops ONLY with dirt roads !
One of the major one, even conquered that way, without any depots, already 40% of the "largest" map ...

so is that damn AI cheating at NORMAL settings ...

as you could see , my red territory needs that red points (truck stations) , when you look at my friend LOL around me (also south and SE ... nothing only dirt roads , so he was a lot faster to grab everything ...
think soon he will crush me , as it seems he also has 10 times the troops ... so there is the next question MONEY to pay his troops ! LOL

You need to place traffic signs at every single intersection. Otherwise, all your supply gets wasted.
This design is liked by many players for odd reason.

(in reply to FlashXAron_slith)

Post #: 49

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:03:20 PM

KingHalford

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Joined: 8/18/2016
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Chess and other very simple board games aside, I'll challenge anybody here to name one computer strategy game where the AI is both competent AND plays by exactly the same rules the player does.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to Cornuthaum)

Post #: 50

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:07:51 PM

KingHalford

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Joined: 8/18/2016
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That aside, it's well documented just how difficult it is to get an AI to be able to "think ahead" as humans can. Even relatively simple strategy games have a level of complexity that make it infeasible for the AI to compete with a human brain without some simplification of rules, or some kind of resource advantage.

Shadow Empire is on another level of complexity entirely and expecting the developer to get the game to play to the same rules as the human player is completely unreasonable and I expect the results would be disasterous.

You're just going to have to accept that unless you play multiplayer, the AI will have to have some advantage to allow it to compete.

_____________________________

Ben "BATTLEMODE"
www.eXplorminate.co

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 51

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:32:32 PM

Laiders

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

That aside, it's well documented just how difficult it is to get an AI to be able to "think ahead" as humans can. Even relatively simple strategy games have a level of complexity that make it infeasible for the AI to compete with a human brain without some simplification of rules, or some kind of resource advantage.

Shadow Empire is on another level of complexity entirely and expecting the developer to get the game to play to the same rules as the human player is completely unreasonable and I expect the results would be disasterous.

You're just going to have to accept that unless you play multiplayer, the AI will have to have some advantage to allow it to compete.

The interesting thing here right is Vic doesn't just give advantages. He simplifies AI rules as uniformly and minimally as possible, depending on intended significance of AI, to get the AI leveled up for the intended difficulty. An example of this is AI logistics simplifications. Mostly advantages. Except the AI cannot never use strategic transfer. This makes the AI's life much simpler and probably speeds up turns a lot and stops the AI wasting logistics etc. It's good. It's also a gigantic disadvantage against a good human player. Strategic transfer is a pretty big force multiplier.

This is why I like Vic's games and trust him to design a fair AI that uses all the systems as fully as it reasonably can within the constraints imposed upon it and do not want he to waste time heroically trying to achieve the impossible.

Iff the AI rules can be complicated further towards human player level without making it worse, without simplification (or at least closes consultation on any simplification) and without worse average performance on regular difficulty, then I think it is worth development time.

If that scenario is, on balance, deemed unlikely by Vic, I'd rather he spent time polishing other things or developing some other interesting threads further story-wise or developing additions such as air/navy or a degree of terraforming etc.

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 52

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:36:01 PM

Mook881

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/24/2010
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Sticking to the issue at hand, I must agree with the original poster, that I don't want a game to cheat. It should play as close (as possible) to the rules that humans use. One thing that I don't understand from this discussion is the blindness of responses from both sides. For me, there is a very simple solution....give the player the choice! At game setup and in the settings screen during a game, there should be a check box that you can toggle and the player can pick the ruleset the computer players follow. Now everyone can be happy!

I have never played any game like this before, and it would be nice to have an even playing field while I am learning and I am a new dad, so I don't have as much time to read a 300+ page manual (although I am trying slowly!). I also am not used to complex logistical systems, so I don't want to face an impossible foe and have to min/max things to win on easy. That's not fun for me. This is a game, so I should be winning most of the time as an escape from reality. :)

I would definitely like to see more customizable options in the beginning at game setup. More options is always better for the player and reduces these heated arguments. Play the game how you want!

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 53

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 10:48:49 PM

Laiders

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mook881

Sticking to the issue at hand, I must agree with the original poster, that I don't want a game to cheat. It should play as close (as possible) to the rules that humans use. One thing that I don't understand from this discussion is the blindness of responses from both sides. For me, there is a very simple solution....give the player the choice! At game setup and in the settings screen during a game, there should be a check box that you can toggle and the player can pick the ruleset the computer players follow. Now everyone can be happy!

I have never played any game like this before, and it would be nice to have an even playing field while I am learning and I am a new dad, so I don't have as much time to read a 300+ page manual (although I am trying slowly!). I also am not used to complex logistical systems, so I don't want to face an impossible foe and have to min/max things to win on easy. That's not fun for me. This is a game, so I should be winning most of the time as an escape from reality. :)

I would definitely like to see more customizable options in the beginning at game setup. More options is always better for the player and reduces these heated arguments. Play the game how you want!

But that doesn't work right. It would be a gigantic source of bugs if the two rulesets could bleed into one another. AI development work would be doubled in size and at least 4 times as hard. Players would be unable to support other players due to divergent rulesets. Etc.

You do not have to read the manual. Just keep it open as a reference document and alt-tab to it as absolutely necessary in game. It's pretty easy to search once you learn game key terms and key terms can be readily found on the UI, though the UI is generally a little messy. I would read or at least skim the 'How to Play' section but even this can be done in stages.

If you've got half an hour or an hour spare to watch/listen to something, watch some of Das's tutorials [link:Das tutorial playlist ep 00: Intro to Series]. They may not always be perfect but they are very, very good and more than enough to get you started.

Pro-tip: Das has a slow and clear manner of speaking so, if you can cope with an Australian English accent, turn the play-back speed up to 1.5 or 2 to get more learning in the same time!

Also always ask here if you want and we will gladly help.

(in reply to Mook881)

Post #: 54

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:05:23 PM

Mook881

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/24/2010
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hey Laiders,

thanks for the nice reply! I have noticed that this community is quite knowledgeable and kind, and is extremely helpful for new players. I also love Das, and I have watched a few of his videos for Shadow empire and that has helped as well.

For me, its more about playing the game so that it feels even. I haven't got very far into the game (10 turns maybe?), and I have already seen many people that I presume are at my level with this type of strategy game (medium experience, but not with logistics) staying they are getting steamrolled at turn 70 by easy AI. I definitely don't what that to be a regular occurrence, since I have limited time to play.

I think that options are good for the player, and I don't see how setting up which rules you want the AI to use (human vs. simplified) will affect one another. Again, I am flexible with this, as I completely understand the AI may never play effectively using all rules humans use. I would just ask for an option to more closely mimic the rules that humans use. I think Vic mentioned he is looking into this. If he gets this working, I think he should make this an option for players at game start. I know many veteran players love the difficulty, so I wouldn't want that changed for them. That's why I think options are the best!

I appreciate your viewpoint though and I will definitely be back with questions for you soon enough :)

(in reply to Laiders)

Post #: 55

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:20:30 PM

Laiders

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mook881

hey Laiders,

thanks for the nice reply! I have noticed that this community is quite knowledgeable and kind, and is extremely helpful for new players. I also love Das, and I have watched a few of his videos for Shadow empire and that has helped as well.

For me, its more about playing the game so that it feels even. I haven't got very far into the game (10 turns maybe?), and I have already seen many people that I presume are at my level with this type of strategy game (medium experience, but not with logistics) staying they are getting steamrolled at turn 70 by easy AI. I definitely don't what that to be a regular occurrence, since I have limited time to play.

I think that options are good for the player, and I don't see how setting up which rules you want the AI to use (human vs. simplified) will affect one another. Again, I am flexible with this, as I completely understand the AI may never play effectively using all rules humans use. I would just ask for an option to more closely mimic the rules that humans use. I think Vic mentioned he is looking into this. If he gets this working, I think he should make this an option for players at game start. I know many veteran players love the difficulty, so I wouldn't want that changed for them. That's why I think options are the best!

I appreciate your viewpoint though and I will definitely be back with questions for you soon enough :)

Yeah but people get steamrolled generally because they do not understand what the game is telling them or because they do not apply good basic military theory. Also I mean starts are highly random and situational. I am a reasonable player but I may lose my third big game (first won but abandoned before I made it formal; second abandoned due to boredom and to move to 1.02 with unclear victory state) because I am getting entangled on wars on too many fronts.

Play with every overlay and report to get the game to tell you what you need for your level. Always apply good military theory. Read the combat odds screen closely to figure out some of the more 'gamey' stuff.

This does not mean I played badly, though I certainly have not played perfectly. Recently I was reminded of this Star Trek scene by a post on Daystrom Institute sub-reddit. Captain Picard, the captain of this version of the Enterprise, is consoling his android second officer [promoted to first for this ep but that's irrelevant] Data about losing a game of strategy. Data is a strong AI. He is mentally and physically vastly more capable than a human, though he struggles greatly with emotion and lacks experience. Data does not lose games of skill unless the skill tested is interpersonal. Yet he lost to a master organic player of a particular game early in this episode. Picard gives his classic tough love and wisdom. I won't spoil the line. Data gets over his existential crisis and serves with distinction for the rest of this episode and the entire darn franchise. He even comes up with a new strategy that counters his nemesis.

It's a beautiful scene and only a min or so. If you do watch it, remember Picard's words and play this game with that spirit.

Remember losing can be fun!

Back on topic, AIs playing transparently is key and on a level playing field is key. AIs playing by the same rules can handicap AI or force use of artificial bonuses that are then concealed. No-one wants to say they have to give their AI tonnes of free resources every turn to help it keep up.

Final link is to this collection of reddit tips that are also quite good for the early game: Some tips and tricks

PS: reminds me the War Room could do with a curated tips and ticks thread for beginner and regular difficulty only.

< Message edited by Laiders -- 6/14/2020 11:21:34 PM >

(in reply to Mook881)

Post #: 56

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:22:31 PM

Naselus

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/12/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mook881

For me, its more about playing the game so that it feels even. I haven't got very far into the game (10 turns maybe?), and I have already seen many people that I presume are at my level with this type of strategy game (medium experience, but not with logistics) staying they are getting steamrolled at turn 70 by easy AI. I definitely don't what that to be a regular occurrence, since I have limited time to play.

In basically no case reported so far have those steamrolls happened due to the AI's minor advantages, tbh. It's more or less always down to the individual player's mistakes - and not minor mistakes in most cases, more 'I was completely ignoring how this entire aspect of the game works and it turns out that doing that for 70 turns was bad' mistakes.

Players who don't understand the way models work field ineffectual units which then get crushed on the front lines. Players who don't know how to run the economy create barely-productive zones with hundreds of buildings that hurt them more than they help. Players who don't have a good grasp of how tech works end up gimping themselves with no access to power plants or other key techs; players who ignore their character relations suddenly lose half their empire to rebellions and don't notice that a governor who hates you cuts zone production by 25% and then steals half the tax income on top...

This is usually where those turn 70 fails are creeping in. The AI major powers can't really steamroll you after 70 turns based on the savings they accumulate from not needing to build a few truck station 2s and getting a couple of dozen tiles worth of dirt road for free. They steamroll you on turn 70 because you have set up your empire to fail somehow, and by that point in the game the small flaws have become massive fissures in your industrial base, military strength and research.

< Message edited by Naselus -- 6/14/2020 11:25:53 PM >

(in reply to Mook881)

Post #: 57

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:43:45 PM

Mook881

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

Hi naselus,

Thanks for the reply.

That is nice to know about AI advantages on Easy, but I guess my point is that options for the player are good! I know you only commented on one little part of both of my posts, which is my problem with the responses so far. The fact that you say "well the player just doesn't get anything" brings me a little concern, because I would expect that, when playing on easy, you could mess up half of the things you mentioned in your post and still should be competitive. I guess since there is no game quite like this (at least in my experience) in terms of how you acquire tech, all the cool councils that you can manage and appoint leaders to, the logistics system, and the really awesome and complex combat. I used to have more time to sit and lose many games before to learn, but now I basically can play 1 day a week at best. So, I prefer things to be fun and give me a chance to mess up a lot, but still be able to recover (on easy difficulty only). Also, I don't see why this can't be optional to have the ruleset be chosen by the player. Just don't use that if you like the game the way it is, right? Vic is looking into this based on some posts I saw and his poll question. I think options are good and again, as I said before, I don't expect Vic to make an AI use every rule a human uses, just a better mimic.

Does that make sense about options and learning curve on easy?

what are other players thoughts on this and why the resistance to more starting options for games (as long as it doesn't take too much time away from improving the game in other ways)?

(in reply to Naselus)

Post #: 58

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:48:01 PM

Jdane

Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus

players who ignore their character relations suddenly lose half their empire to rebellions and don't notice that a governor who hates you cuts zone production by 25% and then steals half the tax income on top...

Sounds like an opinion at least partly informed by personal experience.

At any rate, I would say there's absolutely no shame in playing at beginner level for starters if one is unfamiliar with war games or previous VR Designs' franchises.
This lifts a significant amount of pressure from one's shoulder and allow them to concentrate on exploring and learning the mechanics of the game.

Along the same line, I think it's perfectly acceptable to reload a previous save and start again, from the very beginning if need be. Making dedicated saves with significant names at turning points in the game can only help. Knowing the lay of the land, and what pitfalls to avoid can only improve the learning experience in my opinion.

These statements sound almost too obvious to make, and if they are, I apologize for wasting a bit of your time. But one is perfectly free to use the tools readily available to tailor their gaming experience to their needs and tastes. It is a rather sophisticated game, but one can very well take it easy.

Do not fret about getting overrun. As others said, it is often because one rushed onward and doing so missed important clues. I've been playing slow since I'm writing an report for other people to enjoy, and it improved significantly my understanding of and appreciation for Shadow Empire, at least I like to think so.

If you're a newbie dad (congratulations by the way) you'll have to exercise patience sooner or later. You could train this skill on Shadow Empire, and it wouldn't detract from your experience, on the contrary. Just expect planetary conquest to take a few weeks or months, is all.

The AI does quite a good job at challenging the player, but it makes the occasional mistake too, and the player is much more apt of taking advantage of it. You just have to build a solid foundation, and then you'll be able to fly by the seat of your pants following along your intuition.

It might just take a little time to grok.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mook881
...

I hadn't realized yet you have only game session per week left. That is very little, and I'm getting unsure you'll have enough time handy to enjoy SE.

I think naselus was pointing out there's a snowball effect. While you take 70 turns to figure stuff out - honestly I think if it takes this long you should slow down, think harder and Alt+Tab to the manual more, and I really don't intend being rude when saying that - the AI goes on with its game plan and when it comes to Ragnarok, you're way behind the curve.

This is why I suggest to make good use of the ability to revert and reload. Now you know the land, you know the enemy, when it'll hit and with what, and you can plan again accordingly.

In the end it really depends on what your definition of fun is, I would say. If you need to win to have fun, and have no experience with this kind of games, you might spend some time not having fun. If learning and improving brings you fun, Shadow Empire can most certainly bring it.

As to having even more options to customize the user's experience, sure, how can one could say no to this? But I just don't know if VR Designs can spare the resources to do so. In the meantime, reloading a previous state and trying again would be your best option.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/15/2020 12:05:35 AM >

(in reply to Naselus)

Post #: 59

RE: AI and supporting his troops ! - 6/14/2020 11:49:50 PM

Jdane

Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline