Any large Scale wars? Lategame?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Any large Scale wars? Lategame?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Any large Scale wars? Lategame?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 12:06:43 PM

Ayus

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

Hi. I finished 3 games (with each stepping up the difficuly) now and was wondering if it is me, or if large scale wars and the lategame are simply non-existant?
The AI (Minors and Majors) give me a challenge in the early and early mid game, but then its just over.

My last game on Hard was indeed hard in the beginning. It was an unclassified planet which turned out to be a very interesting lava planet. I started with 1 Army and 1 Zone, Tech lvl 4. I had water and food shortages, but these were just a matter of trading my matel/rare surplus until i secured these ressources.

I found myself at war with literally every neighbor, had to raise a few brigades and my manpower was low. But because of favorable terrain, Militia support and chokepoints between mountains i was able to fend off 4 fronts (west, north [Slavers with a sh*t ton of men], east und southeast) while capturing the city of my southern minor neighbor. Then i redeployed troops (1.5 brigades) and took the city of my eastern minor neighbor.

After that 2 other regimes in the south declared war on me. I was at war with everyone now, except the eastern major i now shared a small border with. His only and starting city about 2 turns of marching away. He seemed to be struggling to me and i couldnt see any troops of his in the near vicinity.
So i decided to defend every other front and seize the opportunity to blitzkrieg him. After about 5-6 turns i took his city with 2 brigades and this was his end.

So now i control about 25% of the planet population. One of the remaining 2 Majors has lost his city to raiders and the other Major has 12% of the Pops. I decided i won the game from that point on.

Is it possible to reach lategame somehow? I mean with BIG armys and late Tech? I didnt even build light tanks in my last game (my oil shortage also wouldnt have supported it though).
The 2 games before i also didnt reach "lategame" at all. All i had was a few brigades of men.
Am i playing wrong somehow? Or "too fast"? Sure i could sit around and do nothing for a hundred turns. But why would i when i see a chance to win fast?

PS: I also have yet to see a really good offensive of an AI. All they do is wasting their troops in suicide attacks most of the time. Sometimes the fast enemy troops try to cut my supplyline, but that usually ends with them being encircled and destroyed.

Post #: 1

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 12:13:14 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

Your issues seems to come down to teh AI majors being too weak. Consider starting on more armies/zone and/or more zones.

That should allow them to win the "Major vs Environment" part of the early game and thus trive into later game.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/5/2020 12:14:24 PM >

(in reply to Ayus)

Post #: 2

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 12:40:57 PM

ramnblam

Posts: 199
Joined: 6/9/2020
From: Australia
Status: offline

I think the problem stems from that the AI majors don't make new cities, so if they're struggling against a minor (which are really strong) they struggle to expand.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 3

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 12:48:09 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I think the problem stems from that the AI majors don't make new cities, so if they're struggling against a minor (which are really strong) they struggle to expand.

Making new cities helps you limit Administrative Strain. It is no a expansion in the area of overall power. If anything, it is diluting your power over a wider area.

(in reply to ramnblam)

Post #: 4

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 1:09:57 PM

t1it

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline

Play on large planets, if turn times are tolerable for you. Regen [younger planets (->weaker carnivores)] planets until you have at least two majors in each side of the planet with a bunch of minors neighboring them.
Preferably there should be lots of farmers or hunters and not so many raiders.

Diplomacy and military (-industrial complex) improvements to AI are hopefully coming as I found it pretty lacking.
Alliances are rarely formed, opportunistic behavior or backstabbing are not common enough (knee jerk reaction to the players impending victory comes way too late).
For the military part, they need to be more focused on what they research and realize some techs are better than others, even with an expected shortage of it's resource (tanks).

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 5

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 2:13:48 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I think the problem stems from that the AI majors don't make new cities, so if they're struggling against a minor (which are really strong) they struggle to expand.

Making new cities helps you limit Administrative Strain. It is no a expansion in the area of overall power. If anything, it is diluting your power over a wider area.

While there are limits it definitely increases your potential power (unless you hit limits).

Compare the possible amount of
* recruits
* IP generation
* BP generation
* credit generation

In 1 city versus 3 cities. Obviously 3 cities can produce more of all of them.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 6

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 2:42:51 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I think the problem stems from that the AI majors don't make new cities, so if they're struggling against a minor (which are really strong) they struggle to expand.

Making new cities helps you limit Administrative Strain. It is no a expansion in the area of overall power. If anything, it is diluting your power over a wider area.

While there are limits it definitely increases your potential power (unless you hit limits).

Compare the possible amount of
* recruits
* IP generation
* BP generation
* credit generation

In 1 city versus 3 cities. Obviously 3 cities can produce more of all of them.

That is a nice theory, but the practice disagrees:
- Recruits are not produced. They are taken from population. And the pop growth will be about the same, no mater over how many cities you distribute the population
- hiring more worker overall, costs you more Credits per turn. It will also drive privat salaries up, so you have to pay them even more
- higher tier buildings are more worker and resource efficient then many buildings
- if you even get more credits (unlikely), you have to pay more for the workers and recruitment incentive

If growth was a relevant factor in population change, it would work. It does work that way in civilistion, the Total War series, even Paradox games.
But it is not that way in Shadow Empires. You still got the same overall population, just distributed over more cities.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/5/2020 2:44:23 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 7

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 3:51:27 PM

jimwinsor

Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline

Check out the Redwolf AAR in the AAR section for an epic end game. And I just finished up a similar campaign on my Twitch channel last night where I won the game after a multi-front war with the remaining major power, the backbone of my infantry was in heavy combat armor and laser rifles. And I had just researched walker tech and models. So yeah, late is very possible!

_____________________________

Streaming as "Grognerd" at https://www.twitch.tv/grognerd

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 8

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 4:51:33 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Check out the Redwolf AAR in the AAR section for an epic end game. And I just finished up a similar campaign on my Twitch channel last night where I won the game after a multi-front war with the remaining major power, the backbone of my infantry was in heavy combat armor and laser rifles. And I had just researched walker tech and models. So yeah, late is very possible!

I was just going to suggest that. That is my AAR. I did not really reach late game tech, more midgame, but it was a long, epic war in several stages fought with a major power that put up a fairly good fight while I was learning how to get supply to my forces over long distances. And I was playing on beginner.

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 9

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 5:17:51 PM

scottrossi

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/4/2020
Status: offline

I've had a number of games with huge wars in the late game. One of them was a pretty good betrayal by a major power taking advantage of a gap in my deployment while most of my army was dealing with a slaver+nomad conflict. i almost lost it, but i was able to turn it around thanks to the GR Hellraiser i had squirreled away in my capital and some independent brigades (had to ration manpower due to shortages).

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 10

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 5:55:23 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

I think the problem stems from that the AI majors don't make new cities, so if they're struggling against a minor (which are really strong) they struggle to expand.

Making new cities helps you limit Administrative Strain. It is no a expansion in the area of overall power. If anything, it is diluting your power over a wider area.

While there are limits it definitely increases your potential power (unless you hit limits).

Compare the possible amount of
* recruits
* IP generation
* BP generation
* credit generation

In 1 city versus 3 cities. Obviously 3 cities can produce more of all of them.

That is a nice theory, but the practice disagrees:
- Recruits are not produced. They are taken from population. And the pop growth will be about the same, no mater over how many cities you distribute the population
- hiring more worker overall, costs you more Credits per turn. It will also drive privat salaries up, so you have to pay them even more
- higher tier buildings are more worker and resource efficient then many buildings
- if you even get more credits (unlikely), you have to pay more for the workers and recruitment incentive

If growth was a relevant factor in population change, it would work. It does work that way in civilistion, the Total War series, even Paradox games.
But it is not that way in Shadow Empires. You still got the same overall population, just distributed over more cities.

I've proven it enough times. It's not theory, it's empirical fact.

It's just, like I wrote, that it has limits. If natural growth is 500 pop/turn in a city and you have three that's 1500 free recruits versus 500 or eating into your existing pop (disregarding free fold emigration in both cases).

It's the same for the buildings. Leveling up buildings in 1 town massively increases the workers needed while spreading the buildings over 3 cities keeps the levels lower needing less workers (and it also requires you to raise city level which I think you yourself tend to want to avoid ;)).

You cannot logically deny it has advantages to have 3 cities versus 1.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 11

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 6:16:14 PM

Falke

Posts: 179
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

It's the same for the buildings. Leveling up buildings in 1 town massively increases the workers needed while spreading the buildings over 3 cities keeps the levels lower needing less workers (and it also requires you to raise city level which I think you yourself tend to want to avoid ;)).

You cannot logically deny it has advantages to have 3 cities versus 1.

This is wrong. Higher level Buildings are more worker efficient.
Taking BP. In your 3 Level 1 cities you can generate 150BP for 6600 Workers(44 per 1 BP), but with 1 level 2 city you have 200BP for 7K Workers (35 per 1 BP). To be a valid comparison the total population has to the same.

The main reason for creating more cities is to avoid admin strain

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 12

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 9:41:16 PM

GodwinW

Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

Yes, in that example. After that it will go wrong. Good pick, but about the only pick you could have taken: early game. When you won't have 3 cities yet anyway :p

If you want to do this you have to go by population numbers (like you said):

If you have 80K population, you can divide that over 3 cities of level 2 with BO II x 3 = 600 BP.

If you have that 80K population in the same city its max level is a level 3 city and the 1 max BO III gives you 450 BP.

Which is less.

So, no, it isn't the workers directly compared like that (you're correct, I really should have written 'population').

But it's imo 'generally correct in practice'. The higher you get in population the more problematic it'll be getting a higher level 1-city state and the less you can upgrade it all.

Let's say you have a level 4 city. You'll be stuck at 800 BP (BO IV) for the duration of 100K pop gain (to get 200K for city level 5). That's a lot of pop doing nothing for a loooong time. That 100K pop in just 1 other city could give you another BO IV doubling your BP (at the end, before that less than doubling but still definitely more BP). 2 cities level 4 = more BP than 1 city level 5.

So in the beginning you're right, but for the majority of the game it really is more efficient to distribute your population over multiple cities. Try it out :)

(Finally to really show the high-end limit of the 1-city empire vs a 3-city empire: A max city level 7 has 550k+ pop, can make 1 max level BO VII for 2450 BP
Those 550K pop divided over 3 cities, let's say level 5, level 5 and level 4 give a combined BP of 3300 BP: so it's really *only* advantageous in the early game to have 1 city. When you also actually have 1 city.

Also, note that this is only the limit for having 1 city. If you have 3 cities of course all 3 could theoretically grow to max level so then it's even more obvious more cities is better, BUT this is theoretical as I don't believe it will be feasible to even get 1 city to max level)

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/5/2020 9:47:58 PM >

(in reply to Falke)

Post #: 13

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/5/2020 9:50:47 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

I got a growth of 500 pop/turn in a 109k City at 17 Civilisation level

You are trying to tell me, that if I split them over 3 cities (36k each), same civilisation leve, I will get more the 500 growth of all 3 cities together?
The only way for this to work out is a rounding error or if growth is not linear to population!

I believe it when I see it. And oddly, you keep not giving me proof for any of the claims you are making. So I doubt this is more then hopes and theories. Again.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/5/2020 9:52:11 PM >

(in reply to GodwinW)

Post #: 14

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/6/2020 12:30:07 AM

Journier

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/28/2010
Status: offline

all of my games past 100 turns or so becomes overrall very easy, where i run buggies and light tanks with masses of infantry through the enemy defenses turn after turn and rinse repeat as well.

However the first 20 turns or 40 turns when everyone around you is throwing seemingly gigantic militia armies at your starting forces is intense.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 15

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/6/2020 1:28:42 AM

Lovenought

Posts: 227
Joined: 8/21/2017
Status: offline

I wish there was an option to increase the difficulty once you've made it past the early or mid-game. Start at Regular and go up to Extreme to give your well oiled Empire a proper challenge. Hopefully when they add the Shadow optional storyline that'll have a similar effect, boosting the power of the biggest AI major after turn 100 or something.

(in reply to Journier)

Post #: 16

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/6/2020 6:28:26 AM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

If you want to see a large scale war, check my latest Molon Labe AAR entry. At turn 90 I'm engaged in a war stretching nearly the length of the map vertically on a small planet and posted the strategic map. This is my second full term game, and both have been relatively easy for me at the start, but both have culminated in large wars against a major at the end.

(in reply to Lovenought)

Post #: 17

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/6/2020 8:52:58 PM

DTurtle

Posts: 443
Joined: 4/26/2010
Status: offline

One more suggestion: Multiplayer!

Takes a lot more time, but a lot of fun.

And a lot more intense, as you know that other players are just waiting for you to show some weakness they can exploit...

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 18

RE: Any large Scale wars? Lategame? - 7/7/2020 11:48:49 AM

oscarius

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/7/2020
Status: offline

Enemy AIs who beat me to combat armour often give me a lot of trouble. In my second game I got into a great war with a major regime of whom we both controlled roughly half the planet. His infantry had armour and much better leaders then mine so was kicking my ass in most fair fights but I boasted superior armour and had much more mechanised forces so managed to score some encirclements. I may return to that game some time.. it had been twelve turns of planet-wide warfare with no decisive victory in sight for either of us though the AI seemed to be getting the better of it due to my inexperience.

(in reply to DTurtle)

Post #: 19