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RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 1:03:17 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		also read this quote:

"I was on LHD-7 which is the sister ship, we only had suppression systems in critical or high risk spaces. The rest of the ship relies on the on board damage control teams which where not on board. They only had a skeleton crew. Call it a calamity of worst case scenarios.

The Navy will make changes based on this, we always have, example, USS Forrestal being a key point in Naval fire fighting history."

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 31
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 2:02:51 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		It just seems a bit naive if in the past the navy has recognized the increased risk of damage/fire while in port for refit/repair, a damage control team should always be on hand. Anyways, yes, this is a write-off; the slow, unstoppable progress of the fire and grinding firefight, as well as the images seen of the burnt out, hollowed ship, all makes this feel hauntingly similar to the firefighting efforts of Kido Butai at Midway described in Shattered Sword. The ships wont sink, but will be so damaged and warped on the interior as to be hardly worth repairing.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 32
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 2:17:45 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

It just seems a bit naive if in the past the navy has recognized the increased risk of damage/fire while in port for refit/repair, a damage control team should always be on hand. Anyways, yes, this is a write-off; the slow, unstoppable progress of the fire and grinding firefight, as well as the images seen of the burnt out, hollowed ship, all makes this feel hauntingly similar to the firefighting efforts of Kido Butai at Midway described in Shattered Sword. The ships wont sink, but will be so damaged and warped on the interior as to be hardly worth repairing.

Even if they had a civilian construction team on board they would have a fire watch 24x7. Pure speculation but what might happened is something exploded (could be a gas cylinder, improperly stored solvent, a lithium battery, ect ect. lots of flammable things on ships and construction sites) and the crew on board did not have any procedures to call for outside assistance with the fire, they never got ahead of the fire and by the time they got help it was too late and the help did not really know how to fight fires on warships. A complex system failure for sure and absolutely a learning experience for the entire Navy. Someone way up the command chain is going to be put in charge of investigating this and they will do an outstanding job. It will be interesting reading a couple of years from now.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 33
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 2:56:16 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Remember how we all marveled at the ineptitude of Russian firefighting efforts when their carrier caught fire a few months ago? The shoe is on the other foot now.

I guess the lesson is that fire on ships is so dangerous that you better have trained firefighting people standing by at all times. There are probably numerous incidents where fires are quickly doused and we never hear about them, so people get complacent about the chances of fires starting.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 3:38:30 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Found this photo. I saw a high-res version of this yesterday but it quickly got wiped from the internet. Probably classified but here is a thumbnail form my browser cache





I have seen it on https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/14/us/bonhomme-richard-fire-tuesday/index.html






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 7/15/2020 3:39:24 PM >

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 6:06:59 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It is a good thing that there was no ammunition on board. The fuel is bad enough.

All sailors are trained in firefighting.

I wonder if the vehicles were loaded. If the Marine vehicles were loaded and they have aluminium armour, that burns very hot.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 36
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 7:07:26 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Found this photo. I saw a high-res version of this yesterday but it quickly got wiped from the internet. Probably classified but here is a thumbnail form my browser cache





I have seen it on https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/14/us/bonhomme-richard-fire-tuesday/index.html






Thanks. Yeah, that's not good. Looks like that deck melted. Can't tell how many decks down that goes but I do believe this ship is only good for parts, and not many of those

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 7:10:50 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

It is a good thing that there was no ammunition on board. The fuel is bad enough.

All sailors are trained in firefighting.

I wonder if the vehicles were loaded. If the Marine vehicles were loaded and they have aluminium armour, that burns very hot.

By all accounts there were not many crew aboard. Not sure if they left a full fire-fighting crew aboard. If they did not I suspect that will be the last time that happens. The Navy was honest and tough on itself in examining the ship collisions a few years ago. I'd expect nothing less this time

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 38
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/15/2020 7:22:25 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I read where there were 160 sailors on board the ship. All are trained to fight fires but I do not know to what extent their training goes to.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 1:43:21 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		She is toast. Cheaper to build a new one. Or just let the fleet have one fewer. Still surprised harbor craft could not come out and cover her in water.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 5:20:54 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

She is toast. Cheaper to build a new one. Or just let the fleet have one fewer. Still surprised harbor craft could not come out and cover her in water.

There was a fire boat spraying water into the hangar deck, but that doesn't help with fires below that level. In an enclosed hold I guess it doesn't take much fuel to build to the 1000ºF point, anything flammable touching the other side of the compartment bulkhead/deck/deck head would also ignite. Every time firefighters enter an enclosed furnace like that the rush of air coming in can touch off the flashover fire of superheated gasses that just need oxygen to ignite fiercely. Nasty work to fight those.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 41
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 6:19:48 AM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline 		I've been reading reports that the island and mast of the Bonhomme Richard were made of aluminum. Which surprise me. Seems like if you have an aluminum super structure over a steel hull, you have an aluminum smelter waiting to happen. That certainly seems to have been the fate of the missile frigate USS Belknap after her collision with the carrier John F Kennedy in 1975 in the Mediterranean where the entire "mack" melted down.



Shortly after this tragedy, the Navy announced that it would, henceforth, have future ships built from steel, not aluminum. Although officials did not directly link the decision to the collision, the timing seems to indicate that the accident was a factor in the change.

Remarkably, the Belknap was taken to the Philadelphia Naval Yard, and over the next four years it was completely refurbished and restored. By 1986, it was a flagship, and one positive footnote in its history is that it served as a base for George H. W. Bush when he attended the Malta Summit in 1989.




(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 6:37:05 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		A British ship was hit by a missile in the South Atlantic and the fire could not be put out becausethe superstructure was aluminium.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Shellshock)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 2:23:03 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		According to the Wall St. Journal, Naval Officials fear she is a total loss. They seemed pretty confident of that in the article.

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Post #: 44
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 3:04:32 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I hope am I not being too crude, but I cannot escape an impression that the ships's name somehow changed to Bonfire Richard.

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Post #: 45
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 3:30:54 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hope am I not being too crude, but I cannot escape an impression that the ships's name somehow changed to Bonfire Richard.

Made me spit my tea out

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 46
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 3:47:22 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hope am I not being too crude, but I cannot escape an impression that the ships's name somehow changed to Bonfire Richard.

Made me spit my teeth out


There, I edited that for you!


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 4:24:48 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

A British ship was hit by a missile in the South Atlantic and the fire could not be put out becausethe superstructure was aluminium.

I think that was the HMS Sheffield. IIRC the exocet didn't even explode but ruptured water lines that made fighting the aluminum fires difficult, with the leftover fuel from the missile causing the fires.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 48
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 7:59:31 PM   
Jaroen


Posts: 169
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Amsterdam
Status: offline 		This article offers some clarification on port repair trouble:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34832/veteran-sailor-on-why-navy-ships-can-be-most-vulnerable-in-port-and-how-to-change-that

Have a good read

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 49
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 8:25:17 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaroen

This article offers some clarification on port repair trouble:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34832/veteran-sailor-on-why-navy-ships-can-be-most-vulnerable-in-port-and-how-to-change-that

Have a good read


That is very good. Thank you.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Jaroen)
Post #: 50
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 9:45:27 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		According to USNI News, the fire is now extinguished:

LINK

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/16/2020 10:46:15 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

According to USNI News, the fire is now extinguished:

LINK


Thank you for posting that.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/17/2020 11:44:12 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		Is there a next class of assault carriers in the pipe? If so, likely a better investment than repairing the BHR.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 53
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/17/2020 12:03:44 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		If not, there probably should be. It looks like the hull became very warm and that can weaken the steel.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 7/17/2020 1:17:19 PM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/17/2020 1:18:49 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Meet the USS Tripoli: The Navy's Newest Amphibious Assault Ship

quote:

he U.S. Navy has commissioned its second new America-class Amphibious Assault Ship, a move intended to help America win in a modern threat environment. Today, the Navy is incorporating longer-range air attack, ocean drones, advanced sensors and new weapons. These are all figuring more prominently in the Navy’s developing amphibious warfare tactics and strategies.

The USS Tripoli, called LHA 7, is like its predecessor the USS America designed to optimize new aviation assets such as the F-35B and upgraded Osprey helicopters.

Currently, a third America-class amphibious assault ship, the LHA 8, is being built and it also incorporates the return of a more traditional well-deck for ship-to-shore ocean amphibious assaults. However, the first two ships of the America-class have been deliberately designed to maximize air attack, air supremacy and drone coordination as part of a specific response to newer, long-range weapons and sensors threats posed by adversaries.
.
.
.


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/meet-uss-tripoli-navys-newest-amphibious-assault-ship-164889

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 55
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/22/2020 6:40:39 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The USN has not had a good run recently. Collisions and now this. I am beginning to wonder about the training standards.



Yeah from the outside looking in this doesn't instill very much confidence. Standards definitely seem to be slipping.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/22/2020 6:52:59 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The USN has not had a good run recently. Collisions and now this. I am beginning to wonder about the training standards.



Yeah from the outside looking in this doesn't instill very much confidence. Standards definitely seem to be slipping.


Get back to a larger Navy so operations aren't as intensive for an individual ship and there can be more training. Bring back the draft! Beer, that is!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/22/2020 6:54:03 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		Back the Brew!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/23/2020 12:35:49 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		The good beer from the Brew City, not some of the other stuff. Apologies in advance to folks who think some of that stuff is real beer.

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: Bonhomme Richard Fire - 7/23/2020 12:56:55 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I like the Bavarian Bier Laws.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 60
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