AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex

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AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/17/2020 3:13:38 PM

rmmwilg

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See attached game file. The TotH scenario adaptation used debris to substitute for mines, but every AFV that passed through any debris hex, did not make a Bog check.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/17/2020 8:16:20 PM

Paullus

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quote:

The TotH scenario adaptation used debris to substitute for mines, but every AFV that passed through any debris hex, did not make a Bog check

Thanks rmmwilg. Added to Peters list.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/17/2020 11:00:15 PM

UP844

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What version are you using? In my experience, AFVs can get bogged in a debris hex, even though their chance to become bogged appears to be far lower then in a woods/rubble hex.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/17/2020 11:11:29 PM

rmmwilg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

What version are you using? In my experience, AFVs can get bogged in a debris hex, even though their chance to become bogged appears to be far lower then in a woods/rubble hex.

The latest: .21 beta. Yeh, I was surprised by it, but every time they passed thru a debris hex, there was no msg in the action box about a bog check, and they didn't seem to spend many MP's in the hex either. Not sure what the deal is.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/17/2020 11:59:36 PM

UP844

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I just made an experiment (in .21) using the "Training scenario 4" and deliberately entering wood hexes with AFVs.
- The first two AFV entered a wood hex and didn't bog: no message appeared at all.
- The third AFV entered a wood hex: a message flashed for a very short time (I was unable to read it) and the AFV became bogged.

Apparently, the message only appears when the AFV fails its Bog check.

Since AFVs appear to have a smaller chance to become bogged in debris, you might just having been lucky

. Try one of the Stalingrad scenarios by Rico: there's plenty of debris around and I remember having AFVs bogged in such hexes, as I have no other way to advance (but it could have happened with a previous version of the game).

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 1:19:22 AM

rmmwilg

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Ah ok. Maybe that's it then. I expected a msg to appear regardless of the pass or fail.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 7:52:17 AM

Paullus

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Great. Thank you for the test.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 11:19:53 AM

UP844

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I just made a very quick test with debris in a dedicated test scenario, setting up 10 StuG III G before a belt of debris hexes.

In two moves, the StuGs entered a total of 43 hexes and bogged 5 times (~8%). Don't take this as an absolute figure, but it is clear that an AFV entering a debris hex is much less prone to bog.

When the bogged AFV attempted to remove their bogged status, 3 succeeded, 1 became Mired, 1 became Immobilized).

On the first turn, the StuG spent 1 MP to start, then moved three debris hexes (those that didn't bog).
On the second turn, the StuG moved three debris hexes and then another two open ground hexes.
Assuming a movement allowance of 14 MP for a StuG, this means debris hexes cost 4 MP each to cross.

EDIT:

I made the same test replacing the Debris hexes with Woods.
The StuGs moved 1 hex on the first turn, 2 hexes on the second (expending their full Movement Allowance), so the cost to enter a Woods hex is 1/2 Movement Allowance (as it should be

)

The StuGs moved a total of 30 hexes, bogging down 14 times (~50%).
I attempted 12 Bog Removals, resulting in 6 Immobilized and 6 Bog Removal.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by UP844 -- 7/18/2020 12:32:50 PM >

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 4:33:08 PM

rmmwilg

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That's awesome UP844! Thanks for that. So, Paullus, can we add that to the wish list then, please:
That an expanded bog-check note appears in the bottom-right action window anytime it happens, not just when the AFV fails it

Thanks

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 4:42:45 PM

Paullus

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Nice piece of testing UP844. Yes rmmwilg. I'll add that to the wish list

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 5:13:05 PM

rmmwilg

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Thanks Paullus. As a not so recovering ASL grognard, I can't help but hope we see TotH grow to incorporate more of ASL's rich detail and variety as time and continued passion endure!

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 5:28:03 PM

UP844

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Thanks, gentlemen: I'm always eager to discovery the hidden mechanics of ToTH

, just to be able to assess which are the possible consequences of a move I make.

As regards to the Bog checks, I would like to see two features:

1) the possibility of setting a "Muddy" condition in the Editor, so that every vehicle move off road risks a bog check (not so severe as a Woods bog checkm, but with such a chance to make a player think before running off-road with a Tiger). It could be used to make scenarios in some settings (e.g. the Ardennes, winter scenarios in Italy, rasputitsa scenarios in Russia) more realistic.

2) a "mud/marsh" terrain type to use near rivers.

From what I read, it seems that getting bogged was a quite common occurrence.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 9:18:56 PM

rmmwilg

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I second ya on that!

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 10:04:12 PM

UP844

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@Paullus:

Are the various national differences applying to bog present in ToTH? Is LGP/HGP implemented?

EDIT:

I made a test with 10 American M4A3s:
1) The Shermans entered 47 woods hex and became bogged 19 times (~40%).
2) I made 12 Bog removal attempts, resulting in 9 Bog Removals (75%), 2 Mired and 1 Immobilized.
3) Of the 2 Mired AFV, one managed to return mobile, the other became Immobilized.

It looks like American vehicles are a little less prone to Bog and much better at Bog Removal, but I might simply have been lucky...

.

Anyway, I would not advise entering a woods hex with AFVs unless you are really desperate (e.g. a M3 Stuart discovering a Tiger II

: in this case, better bogged than dead!)

< Message edited by UP844 -- 7/18/2020 10:39:28 PM >

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Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

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Post #: 14

RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/18/2020 11:04:49 PM

UP844

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I managed to find an AFV Pley Aid, which includes the Bog Check and Bog Removal tables.

Neither the StuGs nor the M4A3s are High Ground Pressure, so their chance to become bogged in a Woods hex should be 41.7% (+1 DRM for Normal GP, +3 for entering a Woods hex expending half MP means the AFV must roll 7 or less (58.3% chance) to avoid becoming bogged).

A Bogged AFV removes the bog on a 1-4 roll, becomes Mired on a 5 and Immobilized on a 6. A Mired AFV has a +1 DRM to this roll.

From these data, it looks like the StuGs have been a bit unlucky as regards to Bog Removal (50% became Immobilized) but the overall average chance to become bogged is 77/33 = 42.7%. Right on the spot! Great work by Peter, as usual!

Now, I will make some tests with a Jagdtiger (I suppose it is a HGP vehicle, despite its wide tracks) to se if it is more prone to bog.

P.S. #1 Can anyone make a list of the HGP (and LGP) vehicles in the game?

P.S. #2 Debris costs 1/4 of the overall movement allowance to enter. To become bogged in a Debris hex, an AFV should roll 11 or 12 (8.33%). The StuGs entered 43 debris hexes and bogged down 5 times (11.62%, a bit higher than 8.33% but this is likely due to statistical variation)

P.S. #3 I was wrong about national characteristics, they do not affect bog checks

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by UP844 -- 7/18/2020 11:11:03 PM >

_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to UP844)

Post #: 15

RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/19/2020 1:41:33 AM

Big Ivan

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Maybe I missed something!!??

I thought this game was kind of like Advanced Squad Leader but not really Advanced Squad Leader!?

There is the original Advance Squad Leader a board game with a load of modules and 500,000 counters and maps and yadda yadda yadda.

Then there is VASSAL or whatever its called. Some kind of electronic version of Advanced Squad Leader on the net that needs to run with Google Chrome because it will not run on Microsoft Edge. Hmmm OK guess that's a marketing thing or hatred for Microsoft or whatever.

Tigers on the Hunt is unique. Stop trying to make it Advanced Squad Leader. Enjoy it for what it is.

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/19/2020 1:44:56 PM

DoubleDeuce

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TotH, imho, is more like the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kits system and not Advanced Squad Leader and it does use that game's mechanics. The ASLSK system uses less rules (there are no upper building levels, no hedges, no walls, no snipers and many other things) and is nowhere near as complex as full ASL.

As for VASSAL with the (VASL mod), it's basically a virtual Table Top where there is no rules enforcement or AI. All you are doing is playing the boardgame with the pieces and boards onscreen/online as opposed to sitting face to face from each other across an actual table.

< Message edited by DoubleDeuce -- 7/19/2020 2:28:45 PM >

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RE: AFV's not making Bog check in debris hex - 7/20/2020 5:12:59 PM

Hailstone

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TotH is a condensed version of ASL in most ways but TotH does not follow
the rules even for the features included. One example has to do with Defensive
Fire where a unit (during the Move Phase) will enter a hex with friendly units
while the enemy unit fires into that hex. In ASL the Defensive Fire during the
opponents Move Phase should only apply to the unit which expended MF's yet in
TotH the whole stack of units is affected. The point being is that TotH has its
own rules or was it a mistake. Would like to know if Peter intends to make it
more like ASL or follow its own path, if anything at all.