RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.....

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 6/30/2020 11:37:57 PM

Elessar2

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OK, deciding to give this monstrosity a go. I decided against the much more complete Pacific map because of my concerns about the naval AI [both purchases as well as operational tactics]. PLEASE don't expect anything soon, but yes it is planned to be divisional level.

I've expanded the map eastwards [to get all of the Caspian Sea in per some discussion upthread] while shifting the entire thing 200 spaces east to make room for the Atlantic & North America; while the Atlantic will be a bit smaller than the scale would indicate, that's probably good for playability and the U-boat war.

Most of the remaining work will be devoted to the southern/northern/eastern edges since Central and Western Europe already look pretty good. Working on the Med right now. I am also grateful for SIPRES NOT using a Mercator projection-instead lines of longitude have been modeled as converging on the north pole [which is somewhere off the map above Norway], which among other things reduces the size of Scandinavia & the Baltic.

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 6/30/2020 11:45:08 PM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/12/2020 10:21:45 PM

Elessar2

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New screenies, Mediterranean coast is mostly done:

Sorry for the links, but no matter what I do (site I try, file format I choose), images simply aren't recognized as such by the Matrix server for me.

Crete

Egypt

Istanbul area

Sicily

I've been using Google Maps, having copied and edited a hex grid to superimpose on top of any screenshot. But Google has apparently taken away the ability of a desktop PC to rotate the map, which is an issue because SIPRES decided to use a non-Mercator projection, which as I said above makes things more accurate, but any land towards the edges must be "tilted" to align with where the North Pole is. I basically have to realign the maps in my head to match. Thankfully there is little work left to do on West Coast of Europe (where he had already done most of the coastlines). It actually is pretty fun, kind of like one of those mega jigsaw puzzles... I did find some minor errors in the scale here & there (the Med is apparently a bit smaller than advertised), nothing which should affect things too much.

Understand-there is a TON of work left: just map-wise next will be West Africa, then the Middle East, Norway, then E. Russia. There are 17,000 land hexes to fill in on the right side of the map, and I'll have to draw them one. at. a. time. North America afterwards. THEN have to put all the cities in, as well as terrain features (Russia itself will be a bear, pardon the pun), weather, borders, input all cities and such into the database. **THEN** I can finally get to editing the fun stuff (units and such)-editing the scripts over will be hours of bliss I am sure... Finally it will require a LOT of playtesting.

I have an issue tho, and it has to do with the tiles. There are 48 "cross" tiles in the editor, ones which ostensibly have land/sea edges diametrically across from each other, 2 sea, 2 land. The issue is that almost all bulge wayyy out, or way in, making any coast drawn at the matching angles a crooked mess of bays and bluffs. I'd redraw half of them to be much more straight, but not only would I have to do the default 24, I'd also have to do the matching ones for the alternate weather/climate, 12 total tile files, which means 288 tiles to edit, where the ones with the same number would have to match each other. Sigh. Or just live with the lumps, come up with creative ways to minimize the distortions.

May likely go with seasonal turns of 10/8/6/8 Winter/Spring/Summer/Fall, alternating turns, which would give you about 48 turns per year (as I said in another post it can be frustrating to get crap weather on your turn when your opponent got all sun, but the Axis player using simultaneous turns has a big advantage knowing what the weather will be for the Allies, and can adjust his choices accordingly).

Tech will likely use the 1/1/1 max 3 chits system I've been playtesting on vanilla, but 2 chit techs will take an average of 40 turns to go up a level, which may mean making turns longer (14/10/6/10 days will give ~40 turns). Not sure how catchup, sharing, and spying would impact that, given that those bonuses are 1 point each. I believe I can turn off ally sharing, unless I feel that the Western Allies (the main beneficiaries) should keep it. One way of reducing the "Everybody has the same tech" syndrome would be to reduce how many MPP's can be invested total.

One thing that occurred to me the other day was naval search on such a big map. So far on both vanilla scales naval combat tends to be a slugging match, since it's pretty hard to avoid being spotted (I know I use my subs as scouts a lot, esp. in the Med) combined with transports zipping around once they know where the enemy is, often able to embark and dock on the same turn. If however I can make it that even with naval cruise (where I may indeed reduce the movement boost there) transports would have to stop in the middle of the Med, then things might proceed more like World In Flames, with air, sub, & ship scouting looking for the convoys & task forces (along with some lucky spying spottings)

TLDR: stay tuned, but don't expect an alpha for at least 6 months. At some point I may recruit someone to edit the scripts.

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Post #: 92

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/12/2020 11:58:19 PM

SIPRES

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Here is some other area you might have not done yet (tiles ID)
Hope it can make it easier for you

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 93

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/14/2020 12:51:26 AM

Elessar2

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That is much appreciated,

tho as it turned out I did Sardinia last night (Corsica here in a bit).

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Post #: 94

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/15/2020 12:31:00 AM

Elessar2

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One more quick note: those who have sharp eyes may have noticed that Malta now has two hexes. The Allied player can now park a bomber there and ravage any Axis North African ports within range (I may give maritime bombers some strategic abilities-note B-24's among others did such double duty). The Axis player in turn can bomb the Allied air unit, render it ineffective (or cause it to skedaddle away). and thus protect his ports. This is of course precisely how things proceeded in the actual war. IOW no more random Malta supply events, and as I've ranted about elsewhere there will be no automatic attacks or invasions of any sort. You want to bomb Taranto Harbor then you'll have to risk sailing your carrier into enemy waters.

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Post #: 95

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/25/2020 11:46:33 PM

steelwarrior

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I hope you guys are still on it - really need the bigger map- thanks a lot for the effort

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Post #: 96

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/26/2020 5:14:34 PM

Elessar2

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One guy-as said, it won't be an overnight success. Right now I am working on Scandinavia, then will have to get the NE coast of Russia correct (given how the original mapmaker used a non-Mercator projection where longitude lines converge on the North Pole which is some hexes north of the N edge of the map. Did find a utility that tilts the pics at 1 degree intervals, mucho better than Paint's coarse 90 degree intervals), then the Caspian Sea and the Middle East. THEN a lot of terrain needs to be laid down, roads, rivers, cities named and put into the database, then the Americas.

Only then would an alpha become a glimmer on the horizon. But it's getting there, slowly but surely.

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Post #: 97

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 7/27/2020 12:52:36 PM

steelwarrior

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Great thanks for your effort!

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Post #: 98

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 8/3/2020 3:30:10 AM

Elessar2

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FINALLY got all the Old World coasts done (aside from some minor tweaking). Just finished the Caspian Sea this weekend, and, since it was not on the original map, it was a bear to perfect. Once I hosed my hex scale, and made ~4 errors that I had to go back and fix (by copying tiles to their correct locations). The projection SIPRES used was as said a non-Mercator one, where the longitude lines converged towards a single point N of the map, so I had to choose the angle for the Caspian very carefully (20 degrees, since Spain was tilted at -20 degrees the other way).

The only thing left to do coast-wise is to move the Persian Gulf N 20 spaces (the SW/SE sides of the map are raised up compared to where they are in a Mercator), and do N America (where I'll have to ignore the Old World tilts, otherwise Newfoundland will end up sticking into Ireland). It will be closer than the scale would indicate, but I've already maxed out the width, but that's ok since it will shorten ship travel times. Otherwise, it's as close to scale as I can make it I'd say, but feel free to be the judge.

As said a LOT of work is yet to come, but stay tuned.

[image]

[/image]

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Post #: 99

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 8/9/2020 6:19:08 AM

SIPRES

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Very good job
Don't forget Iceland.
The map I use for reference was from 1792, so I think North Africa coast may not be very accurate
can't say wich projection type it was.

I'am please that you continue this project as I kind get lack of time to achieve it (after spending many hours on coastlines and cities location)

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 8/9/2020 3:08:17 PM

Elessar2

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I am in the tiny little lakes mode right now, and your Finland pic will be of definite help.

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 8/15/2020 5:23:57 PM

The Land

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Hi Elessar - any chance I could get access to your map so I can see if it might work for a WW3 mod I'm gradually working on? I started on a new map at similar sort of scale, but this one looks more advanced.

Thanks!

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 8/27/2020 2:09:21 AM

Elessar2

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I must have missed the above post-I thus apologize to The Land.

I'll be wrapping up the final major landmass [Greenland] in the next couple of days, at which point I can PM you with the link-I may make it public so someone can critique my decisions-the America's involved all sorts of dilemmas & compromises.

Another boon-Google tonight apparently updated their maps, which among other things made forests stand out more. Right before I was to begin on specific tile details like that.

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Post #: 103

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 8/29/2020 1:41:11 AM

Elessar2

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Welp, here it is, all major landmasses and islands now are in:

I had a devil of a time deciding on what to do with North America. I could have stuck with the default projection scheme, but that would have meant Newfoundland would "tilt" & project into the middle of the Atlantic even more than it does now, and would have meant deleting many southern US hexes, and I wanted to keep the Chesapeake in there. I did move the whole thing farther north tho than it would be on a pure Mercator projection.

For some bizarre reason Hudson Bay is about 20 hexes too far east-I just went over the thing comparing it to Google Maps' distances and at worst it should be off by no more than 4-5 hexes. But since it is cut off from the rest of the map and only a lunatic would sail anything in there even if they could, not going to worry about it too much.

So North America is about 75% of the actual distance to Europe, but, since all hexes were maxed out, I think we can live with that (it will also shorten transit times). I likewise had to fudge where the Azores would go so that they wouldn't sit right in the middle of the Atlantic and thus affect the U-boat war; they're thus about 30% closer to Spain.

I am pleased with the locations of Iceland & Greenland (they unlike NA are indeed tilted, 20 degrees, same as Spain & Great Britain).

Next: lakes and then rivers...

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Post #: 104

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/1/2020 9:40:17 AM

FOARP

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Wow, that's an insanely detailed map! Good luck on getting it finished!

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/1/2020 9:48:17 AM

The Land

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

I must have missed the above post-I thus apologize to The Land.

I'll be wrapping up the final major landmass [Greenland] in the next couple of days, at which point I can PM you with the link-I may make it public so someone can critique my decisions-the America's involved all sorts of dilemmas & compromises.

No worries, I'm not exactly in a rush! Looks like great work, happy to give some feedback if that's helpful :)

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/1/2020 3:27:53 PM

Elessar2

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OK, making the most current file public...

WW2 20kms v1.0703

Again, understand this will NOT open in the game (in case someone tries)...

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Post #: 107

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/1/2020 5:26:11 PM

The Land

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I've downloaded and opened! I may have time to make some comments/suggestions - is there any particular way you'd like feedback?

And do you by any chance still have the original image you imported, for comparison purposes?

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/2/2020 1:34:21 AM

Elessar2

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Yes. That was SIPRES' work, note:

I'll leave the nature of any comments up to you.

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 9/2/2020 1:37:32 AM >

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Post #: 109

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/23/2021 5:34:34 PM

Elessar2

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With my Pacific map now in beta testing, have restarted work on my first love. Currently trying to get all of the Russian cities and towns properly sited. A big consideration is just how "dense" to make the city network: put in too many too close together and it will become a slog; put in too few and supply distances will be too great to sustain offensives. There will be more Settlements however, since they have a low defensive bonus but can still provide some needed supply.

Like with Italy below, there is some N-S stretching, esp. in the middle of the map E of the Pripet Marshes, but again ripping it all up and starting over wouldn't be worth it.

I have finished the Grecian and Italian coasts:

I am not fully satisfied with N Italy however-the northern third is a bit too long (and I can't match up the two bays in terms of N-S), but trying to fix it all would basically require me to completely redo the entire Med, and it isn't worth it for a few extra hexes and 2 bays which are somewhat misaligned.

This syndrome has also affected the E-W shapes of Corsica and Sardinia, stretching them a bit in that dimension. But I'll live with it.

An actual scenario is still a fair ways away, but I'm slowly getting there.

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 9/23/2021 5:41:09 PM >

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/24/2021 9:37:23 PM

OldCrowBalthazor

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Another fantastic job...just like the WitP mod for WaW we are beta testing atm

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 9/24/2021 11:50:08 PM

jaggslither

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Yes! Please continue with this, WAW seems to get all the attention lately, but it would be great to add another reason to re-visit WIE regularly.

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 10/6/2021 6:33:03 PM

The Land

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amazing work - great to see it!

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 10/6/2021 7:31:43 PM

Elessar2

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Welp just wait a few days and you can when I upload the most recent map: all coastlines & lakes should be finished by the end of the weekend (I only have Labrador & N. Quebec left, if I dare go deep down the rabbit hole for an area which will never see combat). Again still a TON of work to be done: for vanilla there's about 40,000 hexes; in my Pacific map there's 48,000, but of course a lot of those are water. Here there's 130,000, the majority land. I've decided to start with Barbarossa '41, because the Russian Front is the do or die front, and it would be a drag having to wait 20 months to test it.

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Post #: 114

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 10/15/2021 3:56:37 AM

Elessar2

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All the coastlines & lakes are DONE! [Tho I am sure I will tweak a few here and there as needed]

Lastest version B.762 (note this is JUST the map-loading it in the game vs. the editor will likely crash it]

North Central Quebec:

Corsica & Sardinia (turns out last year when I was still doing this by trial and error I made them too big):

Central Finland & Russia:

NOW comes the real fun part: rivers, roads, and rails. Whee.

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Post #: 115

RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 10/15/2021 4:09:35 AM

Elessar2

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The whole enchilada:

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RE: Map of Europe 20kms/hex .....Pre release download.... - 10/15/2021 5:53:28 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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Man...this is impressive! The coast lines and lakes extremely accurate.
And look at Finland..not 3 times as big a Germany with this projection.

Speaking of Finland...finally some proper love. Operation Silver Fox
via Salla to Kandalaska and the Murmansk railroad here we come.