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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

 
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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 1:12:54 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Well, we have a few more posts to go until page 18 starts then.

Don't forget the number of Avengers as well. At least one Marine dive bomber unit can convert to those. It can be supersized as a training unit. A mass of Avengers each carrying four 500 pound bombs at 1000 feet can wreck the topside of just about any Japanese ship. Burn baby burn . . .


I will be curious to see if I will be facing large oversized naval squadrons. It is a nasty tactic, especially with fighters, and dive-bombers.



I like the Kates at 1000 feet with bombs. Except for the BBs, they can tear up almost any ship. They may not be able to penetrate to hull of the Lexington or the Saratoga but have just a few with torpedoes to take care of those.

I think that the most that I was able to supersize to was a 96 plane Zero unit. But think if you had a land based Avenger unit with 102+ aircraft . . .

You might want to shore base the Devestators for both training and local ASW/Search for major ports. Include more fighters on your carriers.


You misunderstand me. I am not a big fan of supersizing squadrons. I have never sized hideously larger...when Japan I normally would resize squadrons to no greater than 36.



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 451
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 1:18:20 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		With 2 day turns, I am expecting a particularly bloody first turn.

I suspect the sub fleet at Manila will be devastated.

The American subs with bad torpedoes will plant mines, carry supplies and be pickets for intel gathering.

I hope to use the Dutch and S class subs, should any survive, looking for Japanese merchant shipping. Tight patrol patterns with flying boat day and night search will help them.

The Americans will pursue the standard sub bases, at first Kodiak, Pearl, and will work to ship fuel into the South Pacific eventually to Oz and NG to establish some bases there.

I really hope to engineer the escape of the big AS from Manilla...but with all the port strikes that are headed their way there might not be much to evacuate.

The Dutch, along with their excellent minelaying subs, generally have good commanders.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 452
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 1:24:40 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		If at all possible and it may be too late, I would consider a one day first turn then switch to two day turns.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 453
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 1:29:16 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Well, we have a few more posts to go until page 18 starts then.

Don't forget the number of Avengers as well. At least one Marine dive bomber unit can convert to those. It can be supersized as a training unit. A mass of Avengers each carrying four 500 pound bombs at 1000 feet can wreck the topside of just about any Japanese ship. Burn baby burn . . .


I will be curious to see if I will be facing large oversized naval squadrons. It is a nasty tactic, especially with fighters, and dive-bombers.



I like the Kates at 1000 feet with bombs. Except for the BBs, they can tear up almost any ship. They may not be able to penetrate to hull of the Lexington or the Saratoga but have just a few with torpedoes to take care of those.

I think that the most that I was able to supersize to was a 96 plane Zero unit. But think if you had a land based Avenger unit with 102+ aircraft . . .

You might want to shore base the Devestators for both training and local ASW/Search for major ports. Include more fighters on your carriers.


You misunderstand me. I am not a big fan of supersizing squadrons. I have never sized hideously larger...when Japan I normally would resize squadrons to no greater than 36.


Yes, I understand. But those supersized squadrons are great for training pilots. A couple of experts in there to help raise the overall average, full of Claudes . . .

The US Navy dive bomber units shrink in later turns when the fighter units increase in size. I think that the torpedo squadrons grow a little larger.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 454
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 2:24:16 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If at all possible and it may be too late, I would consider a one day first turn then switch to two day turns.


Nah, too much trouble. Let us explore the depth of 2 day turns...does, the Historical Surprise last into the Dec 8 pulse turn for example?

It will be interesting and fun.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 455
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 2:25:42 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Yes, I understand. But those supersized squadrons are great for training pilots. A couple of experts in there to help raise the overall average, full of Claudes . . .



It creates a moral hazard and a recourse to abuse the game engine to compensate for poor tactics....


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Post #: 456
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 3:23:14 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Yes, I understand. But those supersized squadrons are great for training pilots. A couple of experts in there to help raise the overall average, full of Claudes . . .

The US Navy dive bomber units shrink in later turns when the fighter units increase in size. I think that the torpedo squadrons grow a little larger.

The VS squadrons on the carriers are deleted but the VB squadrons increase in size (to 36 IIRC, making up the difference). I don't recall the VT squadrons changing size automatically, although I usually resize manually from 15 to 20 to keep even numbers for their attacks (usually done in fours). This has some consequences for torpedo usage of course, so I rarely send the Avengers out with torpedoes unless BBs, CVs and CA s are on the menu.

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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 457
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 3:28:27 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If at all possible and it may be too late, I would consider a one day first turn then switch to two day turns.


Nah, too much trouble. Let us explore the depth of 2 day turns...does, the Historical Surprise last into the Dec 8 pulse turn for example?

It will be interesting and fun.


I don't think that the Japanese wouldn't want to see how their Pearl Harbor raid has done to see about the continuation.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 458
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 3:35:42 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If at all possible and it may be too late, I would consider a one day first turn then switch to two day turns.


Nah, too much trouble. Let us explore the depth of 2 day turns...does, the Historical Surprise last into the Dec 8 pulse turn for example?

It will be interesting and fun.


I don't think that the Japanese wouldn't want to see how their Pearl Harbor raid has done to see about the continuation.

Does the double negative mean that the Japanese would want to see about the damage?

With all the discussion of magic moves earlier, my bet is that he does a hit and run at PH and moves on Alaska thereafter. He could go for PH with his amphibs, but that would be dicey for the Japanese on turn one.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 459
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 3:41:26 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If at all possible and it may be too late, I would consider a one day first turn then switch to two day turns.


Nah, too much trouble. Let us explore the depth of 2 day turns...does, the Historical Surprise last into the Dec 8 pulse turn for example?

It will be interesting and fun.


I don't think that the Japanese wouldn't want to see how their Pearl Harbor raid has done to see about the continuation.

Does the double negative mean that the Japanese would want to see about the damage?
yes

With all the discussion of magic moves earlier, my bet is that he does a hit and run at PH and moves on Alaska thereafter. He could go for PH with his amphibs, but that would be dicey for the Japanese on turn one.


Invade Hawaii at Kona, then take Hilo and work you way up the chain. Also start at the other end of the Hawaiian Island chain and take Midway.

But a surprise raid taking Midway would have been able to be kept a surprise, depending upon the course of the TF and whether or not it was kept separate then merged later, close to Midway. I am referring to how the Japanese might have done so to keep the element of surprise. Look at all of those fit young men going on a couple of cruise ships . . .


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 460
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 3:45:01 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I don't think that the Japanese wouldn't want to see how their Pearl Harbor raid has done to see about the continuation.

Does the double negative mean that the Japanese would want to see about the damage?

With all the discussion of magic moves earlier, my bet is that he does a hit and run at PH and moves on Alaska thereafter. He could go for PH with his amphibs, but that would be dicey for the Japanese on turn one.


If he goes for Pearl, that means my plans for India and China will pretty much progress with no challenge. Holding Burma for an extended time is likely too. Loosing Pearl is not a death blow to the Allies.

Alaska, though, is one area I don't want to fight in early. It is a source, one of the few, of free American ground pounders with rifles. The bad weather, combined with low experience American crews (at night) is a bad combination.



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Post #: 461
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 3:54:47 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


Invade Hawaii at Kona, then take Hilo and work you way up the chain. Also start at the other end of the Hawaiian Island chain and take Midway.

But a surprise raid taking Midway would have been able to be kept a surprise



Losing Midway sucks for the Allies, as it is a great place for Japan to use as a trap later on.

In no particular order the deep invasions I fear most on Dec 7 are: Mersing, Pegu, Fiji and Noumea, perhaps an island off Canada or Canada proper. But no matter what happens it will telegraph a lot of Japan's intentions.

The core defensive strategy of saving China, or extending the fight there is what will save the Allies from AV in 1943. I pretty much will take any magic moves that don't expedite the fall of China and eastern India. Mersing is very dangerous, simply because it accelerates the fall of Singapore accelerating the Japanese timetable.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 7/31/2020 3:59:12 PM >

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Post #: 462
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 4:24:40 PM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		The first turn magic moves which should deeply offend any Allied player are those which land forces on the important West Coast ports such as Portland, Seattle, or the important Indian ports such as Karachi, Bombay, or the important Australian/New Zealand ports. None of which were under any real world circumstances possible 7 December 1941 targets.

I am going to categorically state that if this game doesn't start this weekend at the latest, then when ever it does start it will not last long. Certainly not beyond April 1942.

There is no excuse for a player, of either side taking 3 weeks plus to finalize their turn. What will the future standard be, 5-7 days to finalize each subsequent turn.

If it were me, i would have told my opponent at the latest by last weekend, to find another opponent.

Alfred

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Post #: 463
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 5:24:25 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I am going to categorically state that if this game doesn't start this weekend at the latest, then when ever it does start it will not last long. Certainly not beyond April 1942.



You are good with predictions, too.

We shall see. TBH, I am thinking of not issuing any orders on turn and flipping it right back to him. I am certain that the preturn will take no more than 5 minutes maximum, but there is some poetry in not doing anything that appeals to me.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 7/31/2020 5:26:47 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 5:38:34 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I am going to categorically state that if this game doesn't start this weekend at the latest, then when ever it does start it will not last long. Certainly not beyond April 1942.



You are good with predictions, too.

We shall see. TBH, I am thinking of not issuing any orders on turn and flipping it right back to him. I am certain that the preturn will take no more than 5 minutes maximum, but there is some poetry in not doing anything that appeals to me.




That is fair enough. If it were a "Surprise On" option, the Allied player would have no first turn input anyway. Hence you could just limit yourself to 1-2 input orders and everything else can wait for turn 2 for their input orders. That 1-2 inputs could be the Force Z tweaking as otherwise it will be actively looking for its own self destruction. Other units which are passively in danger on turn 1 could just be left unattended till turn 2.

Alfred

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Post #: 465
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 7:31:25 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Well, no turn most likely Saturday, but he promises Sunday.

He has detailed to me his irl problems, which I will be quiet on, and as of today they are pretty much fixed, or as fixed as they can be but as far as the game is concerned we should be on track going forward. Overall, I am satisfied with the quality and quantity of communication between us during this period.

We mutually obligated to 5 turns a week minimum.... so next week this time we could be looking at the Dec 17th turn. With 2 day turns, the game should sail along...or at least that is my hope.

This has been a very frustrating opening for all concerned, but thanks to you all I have a much better understanding of the Allies in Dec of 1941.

I suspect I would do a lot of things differently as Japan. Not gamey things, just things to slow the Allies down more.

I have let him know that my preturn will be awfully short...I think it might be at least a week before I even look at the Soviets, and in general I suspect I can flip turns in the opening pretty quickly.

Although, everyone says the 2nd turn is a bear for the Allies. I am not sure I see that yet-- tell me your experiences here please. I don't think I need to click on every unit and base...those global commands are a godsend.







< Message edited by Lowpe -- 7/31/2020 7:37:35 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 8:02:34 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Having just done an Allied Turn 2, it will take several hours. Alot of it is TF creation and routing; so many ships to get on the move to somewhere useful. But land and air units take alot of time; basically nobody is where you want them, and nobody is doing what you want them to be doing to help the cause

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 8:13:29 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Having just done an Allied Turn 2, it will take several hours. Alot of it is TF creation and routing; so many ships to get on the move to somewhere useful. But land and air units take alot of time; basically nobody is where you want them, and nobody is doing what you want them to be doing to help the cause


Thanks.

Did you do all of the Soviets, are did you put them off for a day to two?

Anything abnormal or interesting happen on your opening day?

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 9:26:13 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

In my game the main navy bottleneck is on dive bombers; lots of losses, on pilots and airplanes; more than in fighters. Also, airframes are the main issue, not pilots

That said, I haven't had to field level 40 pilots; because having all land base FP squadrons and having a few Cats on training (for torpedo/ Avenger) makes a big difference


I have suffered from waves of dive-bombers leading the ground bombing in 1944...so much so that I looked at the pools of the Allies. Surely, I thought the Allies would run out. But no, the biggest and deepest Allied pools were divebombers.



It is a matter of timing; so in 42 they are beyond scarce at only 21 a month, a good carrier fight or a CAP trap and you are out of dive bombers for some weeks

but then May 43 arrives..
and then
[insert evil, maniacal laughter]




Attachment (1)

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 7/31/2020 11:41:48 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		That is quite the change.

I haven't looked so far forward across the frames yet.

I have a general idea of how things go.

Land base Corsair in early 1943, CV Corsair no idea but later and it is a struggle to convert all CV fighters...I think this is actually one of the toughest planes for Japan to counter

Jugs sometime after 1st quarter 43 about a 1000 that have to last thru most of 44.
Lightnings sometime around March 42 although I have seem them earlier
F6F in very early 43
B24 in mid 42
B29s say Feb of 1944 although I saw them in small numbers in very late 43 I recall
Spitfires in mid 44? Can't recall but they seemed to really bolster Allied air defense and were tough close in sweepers, next to corsairs they handle low layered cap very well

Those seem to be the planes that make the most impact against Japan

The dive-bombers and torpedo planes just seem to appear in endless numbers in 1944. P39s and P40s kind of just all blur together.





< Message edited by Lowpe -- 7/31/2020 11:48:06 PM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 12:12:06 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Status: offline 		Spitfires V (Australian) arrive in October 42; there is one British squadron that can take them too

Lightnings earlier, but in small numbers, as long as you are playing PDU On and you purchase from continental squadrons

As per my previous email, dive USN bombers become abundant after May 43
USN Torpedo bombers shouldn't be a problem after mid 42
British torpedo bombers stop production from late 42 until mid 44

B-24s, B-17s in such small numbers in 42 that you really need to be very careful with them; it is hard to keep squadrons at full strength

P-40s and P-39 become relatively abundant as soon as you start getting P-40Ks

Also in October 42, Wildcats get drop tanks which are quite important for carrier battles. Without them there is a big range disadvantage that can be catastrophic if Japan strikes at long range


< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/1/2020 12:18:11 AM >

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 12:42:48 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Did you do all of the Soviets, are did you put them off for a day to two?

What would you want with the Soviets? It's just base building switch and cramming all the available reserve pilots into whatever groups and setting them to train. Not a time sink at all

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 12:56:30 AM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		The British Spitfire V squadron comes in at Melbourne. It comes in early with a couple of Aussie squadrons so they have plenty of time to train. The B-29 units probably come in early but the replacements come in later.

Check the timing of the P-47s, there may be a gap between the two models so don't get caught short. The numbers per month are not exact either. I think that 45 per month means one per day and a 50% chance of another one. I have seen more some months, less in others.

_____________________________

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 473
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 1:29:05 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Not a time sink at all


Fair point.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 1:33:28 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Spitfires V (Australian) arrive in October 42; there is one British squadron that can take them too

Lightnings earlier, but in small numbers, as long as you are playing PDU On and you purchase from continental squadrons

As per my previous email, dive USN bombers become abundant after May 43
USN Torpedo bombers shouldn't be a problem after mid 42
British torpedo bombers stop production from late 42 until mid 44

B-24s, B-17s in such small numbers in 42 that you really need to be very careful with them; it is hard to keep squadrons at full strength

P-40s and P-39 become relatively abundant as soon as you start getting P-40Ks

Also in October 42, Wildcats get drop tanks which are quite important for carrier battles. Without them there is a big range disadvantage that can be catastrophic if Japan strikes at long range



The early Spitfires didn't really ever bother me, it was the VIII that proves troublesome.

Good to know about British torpedo planes...I have the general thought that most of the antishipping planes come from the USN, very few from other sources.

The Wildcats with drop tanks is good to know. I do know the Torpedo bomber at start is exceptionally short legged, and aren't they prone to duds too?

I have given some thought to early CV clashes and how to survive them, and basically first and foremost it is to avoid them or hideously outnumber the IJN. But I have some other thoughts to, perhaps aided by the two day turns.









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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 1:41:31 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Status: offline 		yes, you shouldn't plan for carrier battles with Devastators on board, it is obsolete. And specially dangerous with 2-day turns

Early war, Allies can only win carrier battles when the Japanese player makes multiple, consecutive mistakes

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 1:45:23 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

yes, you shouldn't plan for carrier battles with Devastators on board, it is obsolete. And specially dangerous with 2-day turns

Early war, Allies can only win carrier battles when the Japanese player makes multiple, consecutive mistakes


It seems like one of the common AFB mistakes is think that you need to be doing something too aggressive. Says the man that has a plan to invade Marcus and the Jimas in December.

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 1:45:35 AM   
Anachro


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Status: offline 		Meh, TBDs and TBFs never seem to be the decisive plane in a carrier battle anyways; it's always the venerable SBD that seems to do all the work for me. You can achieve good outcomes in early '42 against Japanese carriers, but make sure the deck is stacked in your favor if you do: i.e. only a partial KB, or a damaged or exhausted KB low on sorties/ammo, or a KB operating without the benefit of additional naval search and vulnerable on its flanks from a surprise attack that is also investing some peripheral island target...

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RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 1:50:26 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Meh, TBDs and TBFs never seem to be the decisive plane in a carrier battle anyways; it's always the venerable SBD that seems to do all the work for me. You can achieve good outcomes in early '42 against Japanese carriers, but make sure the deck is stacked in your favor if you do: i.e. only a partial KB, or a damaged or exhausted KB low on sorties/ammo, or a KB operating without the benefit of additional naval search and vulnerable on its flanks from a surprise attack that is also investing some peripheral island target...


Yes, I agree with you. The SBDs dropping those 1000#ers are real killers up to the fast battleships. They are super deadly against IJN CVs. Although early on it seems to me they don't hit much that puts up a good flak wall.




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/1/2020 1:51:34 AM >

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 479
RE: Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A) - 8/1/2020 2:01:25 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		What happens to the Marine fighter squadron when the detachment gets wiped out at Wake Island?






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