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Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/4/2020 4:18:28 AM   
JoeLewis

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 6/29/2020
Status: offline 		I am having some difficulty understanding why different planes are available for the same missions even if they are in range, using staging bases, and have plenty of ammo.

Sometimes, I click on an airfield attack and I can only access 10 squadrons of IL-4s (the level bombers), then after a bombing run with just IL-4s I can suddenly integrate MIGs, YAKs, and the tactical bombers for the second attack. What impacts the types of planes you can use when the enemy targets are in range? Is it something related to detection values?

Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/4/2020 11:24:16 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		There are many reasons for this and can only give a few for now. But I assume here you are giving the AI free reign to chose the airgroups for you. If you really want certain airgroups to be on the mission you can usually get them to but you have to manage everything manually.

The AI has an algorithm to choose the best airgroups for the mission each time. The airgroups that flew on the first mission may have lost aircraft, or seen their fatigue, or seen their air miles rise above 33% meaning they would not be the first choice for the second mission or even allowed at all. So the best airgroups it would like to see fly may be a completely different set in another air army which have fighters whereas the first previous one did not.

Even if the AI does not switch air armies for the second mission, it may replace long range il-4 bombers with tac bombers causing it to choose a staging base closer to the target rather than further away. Being closer means fighters which would not have been in range for a rear area staging base are available for a mission from a forward base. If you want to be sure the Ai can chose fighters or tac bombers then select a hex with a near by staging base to stop the AI picking one further away.

Do any of these ideas correspond with what happened to you?

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/10/2020 1:42:42 AM   
JoeLewis

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 6/29/2020
Status: offline 		It is a weird issue. Sometimes when I open up the manual bombing of airfields or air units, I can only access all my long-range bombers. After one bombing run, I can suddenly access all my fighters and fighter bombers for the next attack. I don't do any AI bombing, I have my air bases in the correct terrain hexes, and I use staging bases. However, even when my bases are right on the front lines I can only access IL-4 bombers and no fighter escorts. I am not sure why I can't manually select every fighter and bomber within range if they have the air miles available.

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/10/2020 2:12:09 AM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		If you can send me a save or screenshots I have so far always worked out why that happens and how to solve it. Usually it will be the reasons given in the penultimate post.

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/10/2020 6:20:19 AM   
countrboy

 

Posts: 213
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quote:

It is a weird issue. Sometimes when I open up the manual bombing of airfields or air units, I can only access all my long-range bombers. After one bombing run, I can suddenly access all my fighters and fighter bombers for the next attack. I don't do any AI bombing, I have my air bases in the correct terrain hexes, and I use staging bases. However, even when my bases are right on the front lines I can only access IL-4 bombers and no fighter escorts. I am not sure why I can't manually select every fighter and bomber within range if they have the air miles available.


I get this too. I hold down 'Shift' and right click the target and the dialog box gives me say three units to select. I send them off and lose most of them. I repeat the steps for a second ground unit attack and this time I can choose from maybe 20 different units. I have yet to figure out why it happens but then my air war knowledge is very limited.

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Post #: 5
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/10/2020 9:03:45 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		All the attacking air groups have to be from the same air command. So sometimes the AI may be choosing one command and sometimes another one, it doesn't always pick the best one. This could be the reason, am not sure.

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Post #: 6
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/11/2020 5:39:39 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		I've not noticed a problem but it sounds like the same quirke that affects air transport missions in that the order you carry out the process is important. After some testing it is.

You can carry out a manual attack without selecting a friendly staging base in which case the AI selects from the air command it thinks is appropriate without selecting a staging base.

To ensure this never happens always select a staging base after you enter the mission routines and between each air mission if neccessary.

Select F7

Repeat after each attack:-

Left click staging base (now with blue border)
Shift right click target or
Toggle shift button
Right click target

The blue border is important, without it you have not selected a staging base and the AI routines kick in.

This rules seem to apply to all air missions.

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/11/2020 5:41:23 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		Forgot to add, air group range setting can also play a part.

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/11/2020 8:10:58 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
the AI selects from the air command it thinks is appropriate without selecting a staging base.

I would correct this slightly to say there is always a staging base in every mission. If the AI selects an airbase to fly airgroups from in what looks like a one stage mission, it can also select airgroups from other airbases and use that base as a staging base to join them in a two stage mission.

To give another example if you select a hex with several airbases it will always chose the one with the highest ID number to be the staging base. The airgroups in the other airbases in the same hex still have to stage to it. If the staging base in the same hex is a recon base say, then LW bombers are blocked from flying missions as they cannot fly through it as a staging base.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/11/2020 8:13:49 AM >

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/11/2020 11:46:49 AM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		@Telemecus - Are other than Recon airbases limited in the airgroup types they will stage? For example, if a SAD airbase is the staging airbase will it allow all types (other than Recon)? Same question for IAD, DBAD, etc.

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/11/2020 6:04:30 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov

@Telemecus - Are other than Recon airbases limited in the airgroup types they will stage? For example, if a SAD airbase is the staging airbase will it allow all types (other than Recon)? Same question for IAD, DBAD, etc.

no - in that sense all soviet airbases are the same. But you cannot stage airgroups in airbases in one front by an airbase in another front. Similarly for the Axis you can only stage for airgroups in the same, parent or sibling Air HQs


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Post #: 11
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/13/2020 12:27:05 PM   
JoeLewis

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 6/29/2020
Status: offline 		So when I only get Il-4 bombers for a mission, the AI is selecting a bomber airbase as a staging base? How should the Soviets manage their staging bases? Do I need to have 5 x BAD airbases and then 1 x BAD staging airbase, and keep every front airbase the same?

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Post #: 12
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/13/2020 12:38:08 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		To force one base to be a staging base select the hex it is on before you click on the hex you want to do the air mission on.

Do not need to worry about SAD/BAD/IAD etc - they just need to be in the same Soviet air army (or even same front I think?)

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RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/14/2020 3:01:18 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		I was never expert in the air war of WitE.
Felt very confident in the WitW's air war engine, but don't really understand how the doctrine settings function or which way to tweak to accomplish desired results. It's like not knowing which is hotter or colder on the thermostat, and with so many variables not being sure I'm doing what I intend and just not seeing the result due to other factors. Thus, I have always focused my games on the ground war with default air settings.

Any guides out there recent enough to be relevant? Started a beta server game as the Reds and a few turns in I'm ready to try and manage the air war.

See so many references to air war house rules I wasn't sure if any actual bombing limits, etc had been applied in the game engine.

I did gather that Soviet air base designations are no longer restrictions, just names.

Should I bother burning pilots as the Soviets with their early pre-war planes, or keep them in reserve until they can be swapped? The staggering one sided losses I see the early Soviets take seem pointless, just buffing the Luftwaffe experience and morale, right?

Do the air battalions resize automatically to regiments? I feel like I read somewhere in an AAR that doesn't happen now and people just disband them.

Other things to keep in mind (supply/support)?

< Message edited by Seminole -- 8/14/2020 3:05:06 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/14/2020 3:31:23 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
how the doctrine settings function ...

Any guides out there recent enough to be relevant?


http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23878.0

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
I did gather that Soviet air base designations are no longer restrictions, just names.

They never were apart from only VVS/OSNAZ are for partisan supply and SAD disband and cannot get guards status. And this remains the case

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Should I bother burning pilots as the Soviets with their early pre-war planes, or keep them in reserve until they can be swapped? The staggering one sided losses I see the early Soviets take seem pointless, just buffing the Luftwaffe experience and morale, right?


I would say yes so long as you are increasing the German single seat fighter fatigue and making some losses on them every turn. Ultimately they cannot sustain that whereas you can afford to lose lots of old bad aircraft you would leave in the pool anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Do the air battalions resize automatically to regiments? I feel like I read somewhere in an AAR that doesn't happen now and people just disband them.

They still resize. Some disband SAD airbases (not regiments) as they feel it takes too long for them to autodisband

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Other things to keep in mind (supply/support)?

Keep airgroups support need to less than that available on the airbase - usually 220 approx is the limit


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Post #: 15
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/14/2020 2:43:14 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Very informative questions and info from the airwar guru. Thanks again.

More questions -

Is there any advantage to setting the Aviation Commitment? It would save a lot of time if it did a good job automatically allocating air units.

Does the Aviation Commitment take into account the airbase designation (e.g. ShAD) when automatically allocating air units?

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Post #: 16
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/14/2020 2:51:26 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JoeLewis
So when I only get Il-4 bombers for a mission, the AI is selecting a bomber airbase as a staging base? How should the Soviets manage their staging bases? Do I need to have 5 x BAD airbases and then 1 x BAD staging airbase, and keep every front airbase the same?


@JoeLewis - The simplest answer is that most likely the IL-4 bombers were the only planes in range to the staging base and the target, whether it was chosen by you or the AI. Apparently the staging base designation (BAD, etc.) doesn't matter unless it is VVS or OSNAZ. I generally use SAD bases for staging until they disband.



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The real RED soda!

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Post #: 17
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/14/2020 4:42:56 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov
Is there any advantage to setting the Aviation Commitment? It would save a lot of time if it did a good job automatically allocating air units.


I would say no as the aviation commitment does not reserve the airgroup you want to reserve first and call back the airgroups you want called back first. Also once you get used to filtering the commanders report airgroups tab you can usually reserve everything you want reserved in a few clicks. So overall I do not think it does save that much time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shupov
Does the Aviation Commitment take into account the airbase designation (e.g. ShAD) when automatically allocating air units?

It will not send air groups to airbases they cannot go to (e.g. fighters to German recon bases) but otherwise no

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Post #: 18
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/15/2020 2:54:54 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

To force one base to be a staging base select the hex it is on before you click on the hex you want to do the air mission on.

Do not need to worry about SAD/BAD/IAD etc - they just need to be in the same Soviet air army (or even same front I think?)

Hi, they just need to report to the same Air HQ so make sure you keep your Air structure flat

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Post #: 19
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/15/2020 3:14:05 AM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
Hi, they just need to report to the same Air HQ so make sure you keep your Air structure flat

They can be from a sibling or parent HQ too. For example FKII and FKVIII are both part of Luftflotte 2 at the start of the 1941 campaign game. And any airgroup in any of those air commands can interchangeable join any mission from any airbase of any of them.

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Post #: 20
RE: Soviet Bombing Issue - 8/19/2020 4:04:05 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
how the doctrine settings function ...

Any guides out there recent enough to be relevant?


http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23878.0

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
I did gather that Soviet air base designations are no longer restrictions, just names.

They never were apart from only VVS/OSNAZ are for partisan supply and SAD disband and cannot get guards status. And this remains the case

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Should I bother burning pilots as the Soviets with their early pre-war planes, or keep them in reserve until they can be swapped? The staggering one sided losses I see the early Soviets take seem pointless, just buffing the Luftwaffe experience and morale, right?


I would say yes so long as you are increasing the German single seat fighter fatigue and making some losses on them every turn. Ultimately they cannot sustain that whereas you can afford to lose lots of old bad aircraft you would leave in the pool anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Do the air battalions resize automatically to regiments? I feel like I read somewhere in an AAR that doesn't happen now and people just disband them.

They still resize. Some disband SAD airbases (not regiments) as they feel it takes too long for them to autodisband

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Other things to keep in mind (supply/support)?

Keep airgroups support need to less than that available on the airbase - usually 220 approx is the limit



Thanks!

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 21
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