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Does the AI build sealed roads and rail?

 
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Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/19/2020 4:28:46 PM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
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Status: offline 		What it says on the tin.

I've never seen it happen. (I'm only 90 turns into my fist game tho.)
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/19/2020 5:44:29 PM   
HansLemurson

 

Posts: 134
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Status: offline 		I've seen AI railroads, but I can't be certain they weren't there at the game's start. When I cut its railroad, it re-routed around my attack with a dirt road, but no rails.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/19/2020 6:04:06 PM   
Clux


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Status: offline 		Yes, but only if they are majors and have some kind of industry

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/19/2020 8:51:33 PM   
Foxador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Clux

Yes, but only if they are majors and have some kind of industry



Which means that most of the time you're only going to see the free fake dirt roads the AI makes since it doesn't even need them, which is why it doesn't build the better stuff.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/19/2020 9:26:17 PM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline 		It has put me off the game a bit knowing that the AI just doesn't need to concern itself with one of the game's core mechanics. Dirt roads spider-webbing everywhere, for free, and no need to build sealed roads or rail.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/19/2020 10:55:03 PM   
HansLemurson

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 7/28/2020
Status: offline 		It's better than an AI that is unable to feed its troops or fuel its vehicles and becomes a helpless pushover.

But yes, I don't like the spiderweb of dirt roads that can develop in AI Major territory, and the fact that they can build across mountain ranges for free.

But keep in mind, the reason the AI gets to build these free roads is because it still does have to use logistics to feed and supply its troops. It's not ignoring the game element, it's just getting a helping hand. This happens with many other things in the game, but you don't notice because you can't see it.

"Weird free roads" is obvious, but "Simulates zone recon levels instead of generating and playing Spy Cards" is not.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 2:47:19 AM   
Foxador

 

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Joined: 7/5/2020
Status: offline 		It is ignoring the main game element though because it doesn't use logistics at all. It can have troops in the middle of the desert 50 tiles from any town and still fully resupply 100 troops, something the player the can't do.

All the AI needs is a single path uninterrupted to any of it's towns to get supplied, so the only way to cut them off is too fully encircle them.

As the player you're always fighting the logistics issue trying to make sure you can supply your towns and troops without putting too many units in a spot that you can't afford to which is a rule that doesn't apply to the AI. You can't say otherwise either because the AI only has level 1 private truck points in it's towns with no rails with a chance to see a level 2 private place at it's capital. There's no way they would be able to support their troops let along their empire with that

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 3:30:28 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I have played games where I won simply because the AI built to much and starved themselves to losing. This is ok though a little gamey. Better then what would happen otherwise. You really wanna win cause the AI isn't smart enough to handle Logistics?

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 3:46:37 AM   
Foxador

 

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Status: offline 		My point is more that if the AI can't handle the logistic system why are the players forced to use it? Everyone else in the game gets a free pass other than you, I wanted to play a game not a logistic sim

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 4:18:57 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
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Status: offline 		4x games are full of detail and complexity perhaps this is not the type of game you want to play? Try Advanced Tactics Gold it is real good.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 5:03:39 AM   
Foxador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

4x games are full of detail and complexity perhaps this is not the type of game you want to play? Try Advanced Tactics Gold it is real good.


It's not about detail or complexity which I can handle just fine thanks, it's that the way things are in this game has it so the player is punished while the AI has easy street. That's the part I don't like. I don't mind a system if both players have to follow it, but if only I have to follow it while no one else does it feels cheap.

I can handle the logistic system in this game but it's a hollow thing to conquer since I get to watch everyone else cheat it. It's one thing to have a system in play, it's another to have it so you're the only one forced to deal with it. I rather have the AI just get bonuses to stuff like they do in pretty much everyone game than just ignoring key aspects of the game.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 8:09:17 AM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline 		I broadly agree with Foxador here.

I fully understand and accept that AIs need to cheat in order to give the Human a challenge. Every decent 4X/wargame does it. However, the really good ones do it by way of slight advantages afforded to an already decent AI. Here I see a completely free pass being given, and that diminishes the game somewhat for me.

I heard about the much lauded AI in this game, which is mostly what drew me to it, but I just don't see it. What I do see is an AI that doesn't have to even consider the core backbone of what defines this game, i.e., the Logistics system; an AI that can send its troops _anywhere_ and not suffer anything worse than being caught out of position militarily; an AI being frequently caught out of position militarily; an AI that frequently puts tanks in mountains and leaves troops out in the wind; an AI that doesn't know how to deal with long range attacks; ad nauseum.

To be honest, I was kind of okay with the AI being weak in terms of army handling as this is a fairly common thing in such games and I've got used to giving games that aren't strong in this area something of a grudging pass; however, to recently discover that the AI also can't handle this game's (arguably) core system, and is allowed to essentially ignore it, feels like a bridge too far. (It's not even as if the AI's weakness has been cunningly disguised; the giant, maddening, spiderweb of dirt roads shout loud and proud about what's really going on.)

Is it still a good game? Yes, clearly it is. But it's not the game I thought it was - which is entirely down to me. It's more like just another wargame/puzzle game where the player is more fighting the systems than the opponents. And that's fine, I suppose, if that's what you want. I also accept that I don't think the game ever directly marketed itself as being anything more than that.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 10:27:19 PM   
KingHalford


Posts: 488
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Status: offline 		Name one 4X game with a good AI and I'll show you an AI that uses exactly the same kind of advantages as the one in Shadow Empire does.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 8/21/2020 3:27:12 AM >

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/20/2020 10:52:44 PM   
t1it

 

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Status: offline 		I'm also put off by the AI completely ignoring logistics. Why I prefer simpler logistics system but one the AI actually uses. Ie. Ageod games.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/21/2020 8:54:38 AM   
stryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Name one 4X game with a good AI and I'll show you an AI that uses exactly the same kind of advantages as the one in Shadow Empire does.

How about nearly every TBS wargame that has a supply mechanic, including one of this game's predecessors: Advanced Tactics. (I haven't actually played AT so I can't confirm that myself, so I am taking the word of others on this one which is not without risk.)

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/21/2020 11:56:16 AM   
Twotribes


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Status: offline 		Advanced Tactics Gold the AI can over build and then their armies starve.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/21/2020 6:43:53 PM   
Warjager

 

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Status: offline 		WHAT????? Ai dont use the logistic system at all?? ok! I was on the forum to read about more of the game, to see if i buy it or not. Clearly i wont ever after reading this!!! Big part of the fun is to think about how to outsmart your enemy, dealing with your logistic and their, and maybe find a weak spot to use to your advantage. Ok for some special unit or bandit to be able to do that, but for an entire empire to bypass the core of the game? no way! They made it with Atg, why not include this to SE? After all, its kind of its spiritual succesor!

Hope its because the game still a work in progress and will be added at a later date, but if not, its really immersion breaking for me! Will go back to Atg instead!

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/21/2020 7:19:53 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
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Status: offline 		You can still cut them off they have to trace a path back to a source.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/21/2020 8:22:23 PM   
DeltaV112

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Name one 4X game with a good AI and I'll show you an AI that uses exactly the same kind of advantages as the one in Shadow Empire does.

The Sword of the Stars AI at standard difficulty doesn't cheat vision, doesn't cheat tech, doesn't cheat economy, doesn't have any particular inclination to gang up on the human player more than the AI, and is generally capable of kicking your ass until you're fairly experienced at the game.

Good AI in a 4x game is a matter of designing systems that the AI can interact with effectively and putting in the time to make the AI good at executing it. When I talk about SotS I talk about a game that has a mathematically very simple set of economy decisions that the AI can effectively predict the outcomes of, that the AI there is good at empire-building and less competent at battles(which are much more hard to analyze) isn't too surprising.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/22/2020 5:57:11 AM   
HansLemurson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warjager

WHAT????? Ai dont use the logistic system at all?? ok! I was on the forum to read about more of the game, to see if i buy it or not. Clearly i wont ever after reading this!!! Big part of the fun is to think about how to outsmart your enemy, dealing with your logistic and their, and maybe find a weak spot to use to your advantage. Ok for some special unit or bandit to be able to do that, but for an entire empire to bypass the core of the game? no way! They made it with Atg, why not include this to SE? After all, its kind of its spiritual succesor!

Hope its because the game still a work in progress and will be added at a later date, but if not, its really immersion breaking for me! Will go back to Atg instead!

The AI does use the Logistical system, it's just given some boosts to make sure it doesn't trip over itself.
It gets:
- Free Road Construction
- Free Logistics points generated from cities

The complaint was just that cutting a road doesn't hurt the AI like it does a human, because the AI can immediately build a new road to bypass your blockage and get its troops back into supply before they suffer any real problems.

(in reply to Warjager)
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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/22/2020 6:45:41 AM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		Given an auto-pull logistics system in place, I'm not sure why the AI shouldn't play by the same rules.




Many images like these in games, an AI minor surrounded by an AI major. Both passive toward one another.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/22/2020 6:47:01 AM >

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/22/2020 9:57:01 AM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansLemurson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Warjager

WHAT????? Ai dont use the logistic system at all?? ok! I was on the forum to read about more of the game, to see if i buy it or not. Clearly i wont ever after reading this!!! Big part of the fun is to think about how to outsmart your enemy, dealing with your logistic and their, and maybe find a weak spot to use to your advantage. Ok for some special unit or bandit to be able to do that, but for an entire empire to bypass the core of the game? no way! They made it with Atg, why not include this to SE? After all, its kind of its spiritual succesor!

Hope its because the game still a work in progress and will be added at a later date, but if not, its really immersion breaking for me! Will go back to Atg instead!

The AI does use the Logistical system, it's just given some boosts to make sure it doesn't trip over itself.
It gets:
- Free Road Construction
- Free Logistics points generated from cities

The complaint was just that cutting a road doesn't hurt the AI like it does a human, because the AI can immediately build a new road to bypass your blockage and get its troops back into supply before they suffer any real problems.

You're oversimplifying the complaint somewhat.

The AI 'uses' the logistics system in perhaps the loosest way possible, diluting an otherwise intricate system down to pretty much only needing to be able to trace an unbroken path back to any town regardless of quantity, distance and terrain. So easy does the AI have it that it often doesn't need more than grade II transport hubs (thus won't need supply bases, et al), and doesn't need to build sealed roads or rail (if it can build such things at all; I've never seen it happen).

Cutting enemy forces off from supply is a core principle that is familiar to any grognard, in just about any wargame. When you are presented with a game that has such a gloriously detailed and intricate logistics system the grognard in all of us immediately starts to draw up plans on how to screw with the enemy in interesting and varied ways. Imagine the disappointment when you discover how little of said intricate system actually applies to all of your foes; you're simply not playing the same game as them, and yet the game is presented in such as way as to suggest that you are.

As I've said before, all games cheat. They have to. That being said, it is my opinion that the AI in this game gets, literally, far too many free passes.

< Message edited by stryc -- 8/22/2020 9:58:49 AM >

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 1:43:55 AM   
Smidlee

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc
...
As I've said before, all games cheat. They have to. That being said, it is my opinion that the AI in this game gets, literally, far too many free passes.

Is it even possible to lose to the AI? Look how the AI builds roads.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 2:15:21 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Try against Nemesis

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 3:21:41 AM   
gmsitton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smidlee


quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc
...
As I've said before, all games cheat. They have to. That being said, it is my opinion that the AI in this game gets, literally, far too many free passes.

Is it even possible to lose to the AI? Look how the AI builds roads.


Yes, especially if you roll a bad starting situation.

(in reply to Smidlee)
Post #: 25
RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 3:52:55 AM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline 		Placing the player in an impossible situation is certainly fun play, but it isn't losing a game on the basis of rules. The OP and others point out that the fundamental physics of the game is broken.

No one is demanding the symmetry of sport, but the game's play should be cogent and convincing. I agree that it is not cogent when the AI uses contrived magic.

It's also not convincing if the AI can't win without god mode.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/23/2020 4:01:36 AM >

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 4:10:10 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Then quit playing and take your ball and go home. I don't know of a single complex game that does not give the AI cheats.

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RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 10:07:42 AM   
stryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
Then quit playing and take your ball and go home. I don't know of a single complex game that does not give the AI cheats.

That's a rather reductive attitude.

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Post #: 28
RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 3:51:38 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Then quit playing and take your ball and go home. I don't know of a single complex game that does not give the AI cheats.


You can't seriously believe the player should be forced to destroy roads like this to ensure supplies move correctly?

Don't forget it was your so called "vocal minority" that suggested the ability to demolish infrastructure in the first place.

No comments here are intended to harm the game or the developers.




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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/23/2020 3:52:31 PM >

_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 29
RE: Does the AI build sealed roads and rail? - 8/23/2020 4:48:04 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Ya removing roads is the same as redesigning the entire way the AI works......

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Post #: 30
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