How does Combat work exactly ?

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How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 2:10:36 AM

andyinkuwait

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The manual is a bit confusing on this issue. Manual says compare Soft/Hard attack strengths to Hitpoints for the defender. So when are soft/hard defence strengths used?

I was sort of assuming that soft attack would be compared to soft/hard defence.

I don't understand how hit points comes into it at all.

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 3:13:51 AM

Clux

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I don't know exactly the formulas for combat but I think than I can give you a general idea of how it works.

Infantry only has "soft HP (hitpoints)" while any vehicle has "soft and hard HP", therefore, if a light tanks its being attacked by infantry, the hard attack from the Infantry its going to be calculated against the Soft HP of the tank (since its being attacked by infantry). If, for example, a buggy its being attacked by a light tank, the hard attack of the light tank its going to be calculated against the buggy hard hp, and so on.

The stratagems helps you cuz they increase or decrease the numbers of the units, so, for example, if an Infantry has 100 of HP, and 50 of soft attack/100 soft defense, and you activate a "defense" posture (providing -30% attack and +50% defense) and that infantry unit its being attacked, their soft defense its going to be 150 instead of 100 and its attack value its going to stay the same while its defending. At the contrary, if the infantry unit with the defense posture attacks an enemy unit (taking the offensive) their attack values its going to be 35 instead of 50 (due the -30% attack) and its hp during the attack its going to be the same.

AFAIK that's more or less how it works, some say than some postures are bugged and provide or doesn't some of their stated effects, but so far any posture than I have tried works as expected. I hope than I had explained myself properly and good luck, this game its hard to get into but its very good.

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 3:24:10 AM

coldiceEVO

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read manual in 5/10/15/1 COMBAT LOOP might help.
But it still doesn't have the detail about the actual variables involved and we don't have viewer to see it.

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 8:17:35 AM

andyinkuwait

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I get, in your example, that the hard attack from the infantry is calculated against the soft hit points of the tank.

My confusion lies with attack/defence values and HP values. They seem to be mixed up in a confusing way.

In your example, if the defence is now 150 it makes no difference because the attack value of my infantry is going against your HP not against your soft defence value.

Can anyone help me with difference between HP and hard/soft defence values ?

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 8:47:58 AM

TheSquid

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Generally, when Defence or Attack is mentioned - especially in terms of posture strategems and the like - what is usually meant is the combat values used in Defence or Attack, not the HP. To make things more confusing, there are a number of things that affect BOTH attack/defence values AND HP.

Attack values (hard/soft) are compared against the enemy's HP value, where the unit is attacking the enemy (i.e. you launch the attack).

Defence values (hard/soft) are compared against the enemy's HP value, where the unit is being attacked by the enemy - i.e. the enemy attacks you on your turn.

So for example, this makes infantry better at defending than attacking, since they had double the attack value for defence (if that makes sense).

The hard/soft refers to what is being attacked - soft against infantry, hard against everything else (I believe).

To make things more confusing, vehicles tend to have HP that differs vs infantry and vs non-infantry. Which generally means, infantry attacking a tank, would use its hard attack value against the enemy tank's non-infantry HP value, and the tank would use its soft defence value to counter-attack the infantry's HP value.

To see how this works in a bit more detail, check out the "detailed" combat log when you attack something. Of course if you have FOW on then you won't get detailed info on the enemy's values unless you have sufficient recon into the hex in question.

Now, this is also in the manual somewhere, but for each attack, the appropriate attack/defense value is compared to the appropriate HP value. The it goes something like this: if attack == HP, then there's a 50% chance of getting a kill; if attack > 2x HP, then the chance is 75%; if attack < 1/2 HP, then the chance is 25%.

Somewhere in there are also modifiers for determining whether the successful attack results in a KILL, a RETREAT, or PINNED (or something else)? That's the part that's even less clear...

Also, there are rules for "breaking through" - if a unit hasn't been hit, there's a chance it may "break through" the enemy lines, which may result in the "rear-area" units (units such as trucks with no attack value, or units that can fire from a distance such as artillery) being attacked as part of the "break through" (if there's no break through, these units are rarely, if ever, even attacked).

Note that some units may have more than one attack, and all units have a limit to the amount of times they may be attacked (determined by the size of the unit), all of which also factor in.

If there's anything incorrect about what I've stated above, or if someone wants to add something, I welcome any further information to add to my (limited) understanding of how combat is actually worked out...

< Message edited by TheSquid -- 8/22/2020 8:49:25 AM >

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 9:02:29 AM

andyinkuwait

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So to confirm, when the enemy attacks you in its turn, it uses, not its own attack hard/soft values but, its HP to compare against your defence hard/soft values.

At what time are your HP actually relevant and how are they used if the above is true?

< Message edited by andyinkuwait -- 8/22/2020 9:07:09 AM >

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 5:07:09 PM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

So to confirm, when the enemy attacks you in its turn, it uses, not its own attack hard/soft values but, its HP to compare against your defence hard/soft values.

At what time are your HP actually relevant and how are they used if the above is true?

No. The confusion is caused by the word "attack". It really means offense--while on the offensive.

All models actually attack in combat.

It should read, offensive soft attack value; defensive soft attack value, offensive hard attack value, and defensive hard attack value.

The player is on the offensive during their turn and on the defensive when not.

To further explain, all combat is conducted between models. The models' stats are influenced by situational modifiers.

In combat, both sides use their models' hard or soft values against the opposing models' hitpoint value--opposing dice rolls.

Soft or hard is determined by the target model's type. Buggies, for example, are hard. Trucks are soft. A tank model, targeting and engaging a buggy model, uses its hard value, because the buggy is hard.

We have repeatedly asked for hard or soft to specified on models' data cards.

When the enemy uses offense on its turn against your units, their models use soft attack or hard attack against your models' hitpoints.

During the same engagement, your defensive models target and engage with hard defense or soft defense against the enemy's models' hitpoints.

On your turn you are on the offense and the engagement is reversed. You use soft or hard attack against their hitpoints. They use soft or hard defense against your hitpoints.

As an aside, I believe, combat between two models is a test of opposed die rolls. Hard or soft value die roll versus a hitpoint die roll. Winner is higher roll. The magnitude of the difference determines the ultimate outcome--hit, kill, etc.

All other things being equal, per the image, given a 285 soft defense, this model will likely do the most damage during the enemy's turn and when it engages soft type models. During the player's turn, on the offense, it has less. It has a 142 soft attack value against the same soft target.

Also, it is more vulnerable to infantry-type models, but the infantry should have a hard value better than 96 in order to win. A non-infantry model needs a hard value better than 160 to win. (All other things being equal).

These are just the basics. Check the modifiers. They make significant differences in actual outcomes.

Finally, if true, the mechanics of combat's opposed die roll is important. I don't understand it. How many dice are rolled for each side? I hope at least three to five to approximate a normal distribution. Imagine your super-tank rolls a 1 on its hitpoints against a much inferior opponent's hard value. Impossible shot and your super-tank is destroyed.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/22/2020 6:46:32 PM >

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 7:06:47 PM

andyinkuwait

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Thanks, that's a LOT clearer.

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 7:43:14 PM

andyinkuwait

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In the manual, when an offensive takes place and it is the defenders turn to attack, this is called a counterattack and is penalised at -50% modifier. Correct ?

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/22/2020 9:24:11 PM

Malevolence

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

In the manual, when an offensive takes place and it is the defenders turn to attack, this is called a counterattack and is penalised at -50% modifier. Correct ?

A counter-attack is the attack any model makes in response to being attacked. It does have the penalty modifier.

However, each side's models get their own turn to attack (if they have a weapon), by initiative, regardless of being on offense or defense.

How targets are selected is its own dance. Models have an unpublished affinity. Circumstances regarding retreat, breakthrough, etc. also matter.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/22/2020 9:25:44 PM >

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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RE: How does Combat work exactly ? - 8/23/2020 5:22:23 AM

HansLemurson

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I too am annoyed by the misleading names.
"Hitpoints" implies that damage is incremental and cumulative, which it is not.
Toughness would be a better name.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Finally, if true, the mechanics of combat's opposed die roll is important. I don't understand it. How many dice are rolled for each side? I hope at least three to five to approximate a normal distribution. Imagine your super-tank rolls a 1 on its hitpoints against a much inferior opponent's hard value. Impossible shot and your super-tank is destroyed.

The manual says, at 5.10.15.3:
"...The attack score and the hitpoint score are finally both randomized and
will score a value between 0 and their calculated number, and if the attacker
scores higher a hit is scored, otherwise not.
Hit scored
If a hit is scored based on the statistics of the Subunit attacking, it is
determined if it is a Retreat Hit, Kill Hit or Pinned Hit."

So I think your fear is real. Spearman beats tank!

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 11