Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: The question to ask about The Italians

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: The question to ask about The Italians Page: <<   < prev  15 16 [17] 18 19   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 9:40:32 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		So where are we in debating this Med-First scenario?

I think we need to bring the focus back to Spain as this is where Hitler’s revised campaign all kicks off.

Those pesky islanders

But first we need to understand what exactly the Germans have planned in Northern France and why? This is vital as we can't know what response the British could reasonably be prepared to make without this. The British can reasonably expect an invasion is coming after France falls.

BUT

Sorry but it is not enough to plonk a few army divisions, some Luftwaffe units and some barges in and along the Channel coast and expect the British to assume, forever, that an invasion is imminent. That won't wash - but more importantly from the German perspective, simply leaving the UK alone makes absolutely no sense whatsover, none at all. So what does that genius Goering come up with as he pushes the claims for his Luftwaffe to be the service that wins the war?.....

German rationale

I think it is clear that Hitler, taking the decision to invade his nominal ally, is really pushing the limits of plausibility, but we've gone with it - perhaps Hitler became so convinced that a Med first was the way to go, he got into one of his major strops when the ungrateful Franco refused to play ball.

Vichy

Petain and Vichy are not unhappy with this development - after all they are likely to lose territory if Franco comes in as a willing participant.

Italy

UP844 has raised some excellent points as to why such a move is problematical for Italy and I think we will assume that there is no participation from Italy (Germany don't need it - any help would be a Mussolini vanity project like BoB and the Eastern Front). We can rightly conclude I think that having a German puppet in charge of Spain is NOT good for Italy but what can he do? Mussolini will do nothing - but like with the catalyst for the attack on Greece, he is probably seething at this move. In a bad mood already, and not helped by a Gonorrhoea inspired episode, he tells Graziani to get moving with the attack on Egypt or he's going to get a red hot poker placed where the pain will be considerable.....

The Germans

It would also be good to get an idea of the size of force the Germans would consider necessary. What we can know (because of Felix) is what the Germans considered necessary for the assault on The Rock – have you seen the number of artillery regiments?! (but that comes later). Ahead of that is the need to defeat and then subdue the Spanish.

We also need a consensus on a reasonable timing of the Spanish operation. I’ve given my personal thoughts on this and that the attack - at its most ludicrously optimistic (for the Germans) – can’t be before mid-August (and that is pushing it but agreed in the interests of give and take – does anyone have any data on the state of the panzer forces at the end of Case Red?).

In terms of start date I think anything earlier is moving too far from reality. One only needs to see the quotes from such as Warlimont and Manstein to know that the Germans simply had no idea what to do after France.

Warlimont refers to a “Morass of uncertainty”, and headquarters planning became “woolly, aimless and paralytic”

Manstein famously said “When the head of a state or a war machine has to ask himself “what next?” after his military operations have far exceeded his expectations…one cannot help wondering whether such a thing as a war plan ever existed on the German side”.

Thoughts?


I believe the book I'm waiting on won’t be here until toward the end of September, which is annoying, but there is plenty to be discussed in the meantime. In particular I continue to get snippets of info on the French-Spanish rail line. As I think we've already established, there was one line into Spain but the gauges were different so everything coming from France required loading, unloading in France and loading again (at Irun) after being transported, before it could make it’s onward journey. The line ran through San Sebastian on the coast and then southwest to Burgos and south to Madrid. The road through the mountains to Roncesvalles (northeast of Pamplona) was too narrow and twisty for tanks so everything, according to this source (the German ambassador to Spain), would have to go via San Sebastian.

Interestingly perhaps, much of the rail tracks between Bordeaux and San Sebastian are on the coast and so open to night bombardment from the RN.

So with all rail links going through Madrid, the Spanish have a focus for defence – not only because Madrid is the capital, but also because of its importance as a transport hub.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/6/2020 11:29:16 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 481
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 11:22:41 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		The Spanish

I'd be interested to know what various games have as the Spanish starting line up in the summer of 1940. I will post what I can find in terms of an OOB. We've discussed the obvious limitations of taking any game data, but this can hopefully give us a feel for how many men, in how many divisions (and other formations) the Spanish can field.





_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 482
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 1:43:24 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Spanish order of battle but not the actual strengths:

http://www.niehorster.org/080_spain/__spain.html

Army:

10 infantry divisions in Spain plus 1 cavalry division, 5 armoured regiments, 44 artillery regiments, 6 anti-aircraft regiments, 3 bicycle infantry regiments, infantry regiments at naval bases, plus a couple of engineer regiments and other units.
http://www.niehorster.org/080_spain/40_army/__army.html

The Spanish Air Force:

This includes the numbers and types of aircraft. The important thing would be the trained pilots, especially if they got into Hurricanes and Spitfires - or even P-40s . . .
http://www.niehorster.org/080_spain/40_airforce/__airforce.html


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 483
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 1:48:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The panzer divisions would need about a six week maintenance cycle to overhaul transmissions, check the rest of the power train and replace anything needed replacing, replace worn track, check the wear on the main gun tubes and replace if necessary, train replacements, and so on. Remember that a lot of this would be depot level maintenance, they can do only so many at a time, and spare parts may not be on hand. This is not including any quarterly type service that is needed.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 484
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 3:09:39 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

Mussolini was NOT persuaded to join Barbarossa: he decided to take part in the Crusade against Bolshevism as soon as he became aware of Hitler's intention to attack the USSR


It definitely wasn't his idea. So...he didn't just do his own thing. For whatever reason, he could see the merit in plans formulated by Germany.

warspite1

Can I ask where you get your facts from? You have got so many wrong during this debate its staggering.

As has been pointed out to you already, the idea of putting Italian troops on the Eastern Front came from Mussolini. Indeed Hitler did not want the Italians help and actually scaled back the troop numbers Mussolini suggested (the initial Italian force was approx a corps).

It was only when things started going horribly wrong and Hitler was desperate that he asked for more troops (what became 8th Army).

So yes, it was Mussolini's idea.


No. Barbarossa was not Mussolini's idea.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 485
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 3:15:10 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

@ Curtis Lemay:

I think you are missing a point: over 75,000 Italian "volunteers"(*), including a great number of Fascist Party leading figures, fought with Franco in a war depicted as a "Crusade to free the Very Catholic Spain from the Godless and Atheist Bolsheviks". The 180° turn from "Francisco Franco, brother in arms and saviour of the Faith" to "Francisco Franco, enemy of the Empire" would have, as a minimum, affected the morale and effectiveness of any troops sent to Spain, even though they were limited to a garrison role.

(*) as in "Congratulations! You have just voluntereed to join the fight in Spain!"

This did not occur for France (and the fight was very brief, anyway); as for Poland, Italy never declared war on it, as has it already disappeared in 1940.

As regards to Austria-Hungary, it was a sort of "natural enemy": Italy fought three wars of Independence (in 1848-49, 1859 and 1866) against Austria-Hungary, and at the start of WW1 some north-eastern regions still belonged to the Austrian Empire (this was the main reason Italy entered WW1).


Let's see... Italy is perfectly ok with going to war with Catholic countries (Austria-Hungary, France), joining wars that have already conquered Catholic countries (Poland), joining protestant countries in wars (Germany), and is not being asked to attack Spain, just occupy it. Clearly this isn't the middle ages any more.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 486
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 3:19:25 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

No. They didn't have to do anything that urgently. Because what they did didn't solve China at all.

warspite1

Yes, yes they did.


China was solved by the Japanese in WWII?!! I must have missed that.

quote:

No - not at all. There is no point going further with this because it is just the same back and forth. So we should progress Europe instead.


It's just opinion in the end, yours vs. mine and Wikipedia's.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 487
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 3:30:46 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I want to go back to the supply capacity of rail lines, since that continues to be questioned (I don't recall just where at the moment).

Recall that I said a 36 division CCF force in Korea needed only one train per day - from SPI's Korea wargame notes.

Now add that SPI's Campaign for North Africa game had this note: Rommel needed 60,000 tons of supply per month in 1942. I don't know for sure if that included the Italians or just the Germans, so I'll assume only the Germans. That would be two panzer divisions and two motorized divisions (plus a few minor units, but for this purpose, I'll assume just the four divisions). So, assuming an Army Group is 32 divisions, I'll multiply that by eight (never mind that that will be 16 panzer and 16 motorized - no foot infantry) to a total of 480,000 tons per month.

This article gives the cargo capacity of 1940 era trains as 4440 tons each (60 cars per):

http://www.quorumcorp.net/Downloads/Papers/RailwayCapacityOverview.pdf

So, that works out to 108 trains per month or about 3.5 trains per day.

This article on route capacity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity

Gives an upper limit for freight trains as 15 per HOUR. It is inescapable that a single rail line has incredible freight capacity. Whatever force the Germans put into Spain or Turkey, one rail line will be far more than sufficient to supply it.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 9/6/2020 3:31:41 PM >

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 488
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 3:50:45 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

Mussolini was NOT persuaded to join Barbarossa: he decided to take part in the Crusade against Bolshevism as soon as he became aware of Hitler's intention to attack the USSR


It definitely wasn't his idea. So...he didn't just do his own thing. For whatever reason, he could see the merit in plans formulated by Germany.

warspite1

Can I ask where you get your facts from? You have got so many wrong during this debate its staggering.

As has been pointed out to you already, the idea of putting Italian troops on the Eastern Front came from Mussolini. Indeed Hitler did not want the Italians help and actually scaled back the troop numbers Mussolini suggested (the initial Italian force was approx a corps).

It was only when things started going horribly wrong and Hitler was desperate that he asked for more troops (what became 8th Army).

So yes, it was Mussolini's idea.


No. Barbarossa was not Mussolini's idea.
warspite1

Well that response certainly brought the thread down. Well done Curtis Lemay. Well done .


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/6/2020 4:09:00 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 489
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 3:52:01 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

No. They didn't have to do anything that urgently. Because what they did didn't solve China at all.

warspite1

Yes, yes they did.


China was solved by the Japanese in WWII?!! I must have missed that.

warspite1

And. Again. Well done Curtis Lemay. Well done indeed .




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/6/2020 4:09:17 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 490
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 4:08:03 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's just opinion in the end, yours vs. mine.

warspite1

Exactly, and that is why you using the Wiki article as some sort of proof to try and evidence what Japan apparently couldn't do in a completely different scenario is so completely unfathomable.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 491
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 10:25:55 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Maybe we should either create or edit a Wikipedia article to state that a certain someone has their head up their rectal oriface. That then is proof that it is there.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 492
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 10:50:26 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

This article gives the cargo capacity of 1940 era trains as 4440 tons each (60 cars per):

http://www.quorumcorp.net/Downloads/Papers/RailwayCapacityOverview.pdf



The article is perfectly correct, but it has a not-so-small flaw: it refers to US railroads. For the 1940s, it assume a 180,000 lbs gross capacity per boxcar: this implies an axle load equal to 45,000 lbs/axle. Current (2020) allowed axle loads in Europe range from 22.5 to 25 metric tons (49,600 to 55,100 lbs) per axle; in the 1940s 15 metric tons per axle would be a realistic assumption, especially outside Germany, France and Britain. Moreovere, 2-axle railcars were the norm in that age.

So, the average railcar would have been able to carry approximately 20 metric tons (44,000 lbs)

Forget 60-car trains: this is a short train in US practice, but European railways do not have the very long sidings of US railways. The theoretical current standard for freight trains is 750 meters (~2,500 feet) and was about half this size in the 1940s. On the other hand, few locomotives would have been able to haul a 60-car trains, especially on steep and winding mountain lines (even though the Spanish Railways had some of the most powerful steam locomotives in Europe).

The maximum size for a freight train should have been 25-30 cars, carrying 500-600 tons (550 to 660 short tons).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So, that works out to 108 trains per month or about 3.5 trains per day.



480,000 tons per month @ 660 tons per train means 24 trains per day, not 3.5 (and another 24 trains coming back), i.e. 48 trains per day. I seriously doubt a single line mountain railroad could absorb such traffic.


_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 493
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/6/2020 11:45:49 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So all of this discussion does not answer the question of how to actually help improve the Italian military achieve Little Bennies objectives.
I don't think that the Germans could have provided enough of their own equipment for the Italians as they were also providing some to other countries plus had their own equipment deficits.



As far as I know, the Germans provided Italy with:
- a sizable number of aircraft (100 Ju87s, 100 Me-109 in 1943 and others in 1944-45 to the Republican Air Force, a few Me-110, Ju88 and Do217);
- some radar and sonar sets for Regia Marina units;
- some 75mm Pak 97/38 to the mountain divisions in Russia (the only guns that could destroy a T-34);
- a few (most sources say 12) PzIIINs in 1943, which they promptly re-captured, as they were assigned to the Black Shirts "M" Armored Division ("M" stands for Mussolini and, despite the wishful thinking of some hierarch, it was not the equivalent of an SS Panzer Division).

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some German engineering assistance and possibly retooling some Italian factories to produce some German equipment that the Italians needed could have helped, such as more powerful tank engines.


This could have been done and was actually done for aircraft engines: Alfa Romero built the DB601 and DB605, which turned the mediocre Macchi 200 fighter into the much better Macchi 202 and 205, respectively.

I will investigate the issue, but I think the Italian industry was uncooperative on this subject.


_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 494
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 6:25:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Italy...............is not being asked to attack Spain, just occupy it.

warspite1

Well yes, because there is such a massive difference isn’t there? I mean in the former the invaders are fighting and killing in order to overthrow a country’s leaders and install a regime freindly to their own, while the occupiers are fighting and killing in order to maintain that regime against the will of the people. I mean yes, its completely different isn’t it?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 495
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 7:58:07 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Spain

During the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s the railway network was extensively damaged. Immediately after the war Francoist Spain nationalized the broad gauge network, and in 1941 RENFE was formed. Narrow gauge lines were nationalized in the 1950s, later being grouped to form FEVE.

It took many years for the railway system to recover from the war; during the 1950s it was common to see intercity express trains hauled by 100-year-old steam locomotives on poor worn-out track.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/map/european-rail-system-1939 is a map of the major rail lines in Europe in 1939. Only 1 major line crosses into Spain.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/7/2020 8:02:28 AM >

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 496
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 9:09:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/map/european-rail-system-1939 is a map of the major rail lines in Europe in 1939. Only 1 major line crosses into Spain.
warspite1

That is strange. The line showing is not the one mentioned in the books I've read (this refers to the line on the coast that runs from Irun to San Sebastian and then onto Burgos and Madrid - and this does not cross into Spain as the gauges are different). There is no line to the east of this that crosses from France - this is supported by the SPI map that Curtis Lemay provided. I think the link above is incorrect.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 497
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 11:08:50 AM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		That rail line is the one you mention, simply a rather bad quality map. So backwardness would sort of complicate German operations, yes, of course. This does not invalidate Lemay's point. To think a devastated and backward state could pull an efficient and successful defence and then a 1808 in 1940 is errr a *wishful tinking* which I don't buy for a second.

It's simply not worth it. Remember the Roman Empire maps? An odd thing when you look at the British Isles. Scotland is out of the empire. When the legions could have captured the area in two or three evenings. Or much bigger Ireland for that matter.

Simply not worth it: when utter poverty and backwardness are a good shield.A bit like Spain in this what if imo.

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 498
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 11:44:22 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The trains would cross from Vichy France into Spain, I don't think that the map with major rail lines is incorrect.

The Spanish defense would probably not be successful but it would be costly.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 499
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 12:09:31 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		The map is more or less correct. The rail line should be *west* (or Basque country) of the franco- spanish border, not south (the map), via the mountains into Aragon region.

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 500
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 12:13:29 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

This does not invalidate Lemay's point. To think a devastated and backward state could pull an efficient and successful defence and then a 1808 in 1940 is errr a *wishful tinking* which I don't buy for a second.

warspite1

I have not suggested Lemay's point is not valid. I have not suggested for a moment that the German's won't ultimately be successful.

What I have stated is that the simple 'blitz' without repercussion nonsense is, exactly that. There will be an economic, political and military cost to Germany - what that will be will only be identified (to the limited extent we can) from further exploration. Simply stating 'overwhelming force', almost unlimited rail supply from an efficient railway, and no response from the British, despite not being bothered to explain why, doesn't cut it.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/7/2020 12:38:42 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 501
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 12:22:02 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The trains would cross from Vichy France into Spain, I don't think that the map with major rail lines is incorrect.

The Spanish defense would probably not be successful but it would be costly.
warspite1

As far as I know there wasn't one - and certainly not one that crosses without break because of the different gauges. The only line is the one previously mentioned on the Bay of Biscay coast.

As for crossing from Vichy, here again, this is what I've been trying to explain about consequences. The Germans can't just use Vichy. Well, they could but if they demand this then Vichy effectively collapses within a few weeks of its creation. This sort of thing can't be simply ignored. Collapse of Vichy, at this point in time, would potentially be a major problem for Germany.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/7/2020 1:12:46 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 502
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 2:08:15 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline 		This 1921 map, taken from the Wiki entry about Spanish railways, shows another rail link on the Mediterranean coast, but - as Warspite pointed out - using it would have meant to pass through Vichy territory and, moreover, it would have implied having a much longer - and even more vulnerable to Royal Navy attacks - supply line to any forces attacking from the north.



_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 503
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 2:33:18 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/map/european-rail-system-1939 is a map of the major rail lines in Europe in 1939. Only 1 major line crosses into Spain.


The accuracy of this map is questionable: in the Italian rail network (which I know very well) it does not show major links such as Brenner-Bologna (THE primary supply route for Germans in the Italian campaign) or Milan-Venice.

The line shown in the map, however, exists: it is not shown in the 1921 map because it was opened in 1928 . In WW2 it handled most traffic between Spain and the Third Reich, and it would have been a much safer choice as a supply line because of its location far away from the coast. The line was closed in 1970 (see the Wiki entry below for details).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canfranc_International_railway_station

So, the Germans had at least a railway line safe from possible RN attacks.

On a side note, it is true that the Germans quickly wiped out almost anyone in 1939-1940, but - with the exception of Norway - their campaigns were carried out in flat terrain and - in the West - criss-crossed by extensive rail and road networks. This is not the case neither in Spain nor in Turkey, so I doubt they would have been able to blitz through both countries (especially Turkey, which is much larger and less developed than Spain).




_____________________________

Chasing Germans in the moonlight is no mean sport

Siegfried Sassoon

Long Range Fire (A7.22)........1/2 FP

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 504
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 2:52:26 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/map/european-rail-system-1939 is a map of the major rail lines in Europe in 1939. Only 1 major line crosses into Spain.


The accuracy of this map is questionable: in the Italian rail network (which I know very well) it does not show major links such as Brenner-Bologna (THE primary supply route for Germans in the Italian campaign) or Milan-Venice.

The line shown in the map, however, exists: it is not shown in the 1921 map because it was opened in 1928 . In WW2 it handled most traffic between Spain and the Third Reich, and it would have been a much safer choice as a supply line because of its location far away from the coast. The line was closed in 1970 (see the Wiki entry below for details).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canfranc_International_railway_station

So, the Germans had at least a railway line safe from possible RN attacks.

On a side note, it is true that the Germans quickly wiped out almost anyone in 1939-1940, but - with the exception of Norway - their campaigns were carried out in flat terrain and - in the West - criss-crossed by extensive rail and road networks. This is not the case neither in Spain nor in Turkey, so I doubt they would have been able to blitz through both countries (especially Turkey, which is much larger and less developed than Spain).



Warspite1

Well yes, if the Germans are prepared to violate Vichy. That line runs through Pau - which I believe was in Vichy. But again why would they do that? And why are the consequences being ignored?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/7/2020 6:00:02 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 505
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 3:12:13 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844

The article is perfectly correct, but it has a not-so-small flaw: it refers to US railroads. For the 1940s, it assume a 180,000 lbs gross capacity per boxcar: this implies an axle load equal to 45,000 lbs/axle. Current (2020) allowed axle loads in Europe range from 22.5 to 25 metric tons (49,600 to 55,100 lbs) per axle; in the 1940s 15 metric tons per axle would be a realistic assumption, especially outside Germany, France and Britain. Moreovere, 2-axle railcars were the norm in that age.

So, the average railcar would have been able to carry approximately 20 metric tons (44,000 lbs)


You provide no link for this, but I'll take your word for it (I doubt I would get the same courtesy). But, such would have to be much smaller (shorter) cars.

quote:

Forget 60-car trains: this is a short train in US practice, but European railways do not have the very long sidings of US railways. The theoretical current standard for freight trains is 750 meters (~2,500 feet) and was about half this size in the 1940s. On the other hand, few locomotives would have been able to haul a 60-car trains, especially on steep and winding mountain lines (even though the Spanish Railways had some of the most powerful steam locomotives in Europe).


Locomotives can be linked together. However, if the sidings are as short as claimed, that wouldn't do any good. But, now we have much shorter trains than in my example. It really is the length of the train that forms the traffic issue.

quote:

480,000 tons per month @ 660 tons per train means 24 trains per day, not 3.5 (and another 24 trains coming back), i.e. 48 trains per day. I seriously doubt a single line mountain railroad could absorb such traffic.


I don't see why. An hour between trains? Plenty of time to get such short trains onto a siding on the return.

And, note that I was being VERY generous on the supply calculation. In all probability, that 60,000 tons included everything in the Desert, not just two panzer and two motor divisions. And the invasion force wouldn't have been 16 panzer and 16 motor divisions anyway. The real supply requirement for an army group would be far less than 480,000 tons per month - I just don't have any better figure.

Also, let's not forget that trucks extend supply about 500km past the railhead. That gets you beyond Madrid - without even a railhead in Spain.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 9/7/2020 3:26:17 PM >

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 506
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 3:19:58 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		I see you ignore the huge geographical feature in central Spain: the "meseta" aka plateau. Both Castiles and what's in its center? Bingo, the political heart aka Madrid ;)

Tank, flat country, definitely. The Basque mountain passes are not the Himalaya or Alps, they won't stop the enemy, not even close. And after that, the "meseta" is just right there ;)


_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 507
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 3:25:19 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I see you ignore the huge geographical feature in central Spain: the "meseta" aka plateau. Both Castiles and what's in its center? Bingo, the political heart aka Madrid ;)

Tank, flat country, definitely. The Basque mountain passes are not the Himalaya or Alps, they won't stop the enemy, not even close. And after that, the "meseta" is just right there ;)

Warspite1

What? Why do you say I’ve ignored it? I’ve said the Germans would be victorious but that there would be a cost. I’ve not said what I think that cost would have been because I don’t even know the strength of the Germans. Yeah panzer country might be great - especially if the attackers have panzers. But in this “staff study” we’ve not even been told this.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/7/2020 6:09:26 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 508
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 6:24:14 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		I don't like the zigurats. Post 504 ;)

_____________________________

a nu cheeki breeki iv damke

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 509
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/7/2020 7:52:55 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Well, Canfranc is in Huesca province in Aragon so it is not right along the coast but it would be opposite Vichy France. It has a nice, long tunnel which could be brought down or otherwise made unusable. The Nazi Germans took over one platform in 1942 because it was considered French territory. But escapees from Nazi occupied Europe went through there.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2387682/The-abandoned-Nazi-railway-station-mountains-fell-disrepair--hides-secret-laboratory-researching-dark-matter.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-41445860

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/canfranc-station-spain/index.html

It is not just the length of the siding that counts but also the ability to offload and properly handle what the train was carrying.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 510
Page:   <<   < prev  15 16 [17] 18 19   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: The question to ask about The Italians Page: <<   < prev  15 16 [17] 18 19   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.672