Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Historical torpedo tactics of warships

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Historical torpedo tactics of warships Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 1:51:43 PM   
porpoisehead


Posts: 26
Joined: 10/16/2020
Status: offline 		Hey folks!

One of the things that keeps surprising me in the combat replays is warships chucking torpedoes at each other from thousands, even tens of thousands, of yards distance.

Is this historically accurate? How did warships of the era actually utilize torpedoes (in practice and/or in theory)?

I could probably Google this, but I think I'll get better and more interesting answers from this community.
Post #: 1
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 2:03:25 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Long Lance is called that for a reason IJN used the range all the time, sometimes very effective like at Savo island

(in reply to porpoisehead)
Post #: 2
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 2:43:10 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Yes it is common for surface forces in daylight firing from around 7-11km. Specially when there were many destroyers. Most, maybe all torpedoes had a long range setting with less speed.

< Message edited by Dili -- 12/23/2020 2:45:04 PM >

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 3
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 3:51:26 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Long Lance is called that for a reason IJN used the range all the time, sometimes very effective like at Savo island

From the maps and battle narratives I have seen the Japanese were fairly close (less than 6000 yards) when they launched their torps at the battle of Savo Island. Same at Tassafaronga. In those two night battles the torpedo was king. The Japanese had some success at the Battle of the Java Sea where the Japanese launched en masse from over 20K yards and got a few hits that threw the Allied line into confusion - not aware of the fantastic range of Japanese torps and not seeing any wakes, the Allied captains assumed they were in a minefield . Japanese gunnery was also more effective in that battle.

At the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (at night) the Japanese also used torps to good effect against the four DDs escorting BBs South Dakota and Washington, but failed to hit the BBs - likely overestimated the American's speed or underestimated the range. I don't know the launch range, but the BBs were firing at them so they probably launched as soon as they had visuals of something moving (the US TF was against the Guadalcanal shore so the silhouette would be masked except where surf marked them).

Where the Japanese were surprised at Cape Esperance and outmaneuvered at Empress Augusta Bay they scored no torpedo hits.

EDIT: I meant to mention that in the game, it is common for Allied DDs to launch torpedoes from extreme range - 10K yards for US DDs, 11K yards for British DDs. Near as I can tell, the more aggressive captains will hold their torps and try to close the range before launching. Like PT boats, it is common for the DDs not to launch when they are at short range like <4000 yards because they are out of position relative to the target or they wasted all their torps at long range already.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 12/23/2020 3:55:51 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 4
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 4:20:35 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Some of the 4 pipers in the DEI managed to launch torpedoes at a Japanese invasion TF (I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe) at longer range and even managed to hit some of their targets. They did not fire their guns so the Japanese who did not see the American DDs had no clue what as attacking them.

I think that it was preferred to launch torpedoes prior to the enemy detecting the DDs and prior to any naval gunfire. If the torpedoes were not going to hit, then the ships opened fire.

Think if the Oi and the Kitakami were together and surprised an Allied CV TF at relatively close range, then fired all of their torpedoes at different targets and hit them.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 5
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 4:25:13 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of the 4 pipers in the DEI managed to launch torpedoes at a Japanese invasion TF (I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe) at longer range and even managed to hit some of their targets. They did not fire their guns so the Japanese who did not see the American DDs had no clue what as attacking them.

I think that it was preferred to launch torpedoes prior to the enemy detecting the DDs and prior to any naval gunfire. If the torpedoes were not going to hit, then the ships opened fire.

Think if the Oi and the Kitakami were together and surprised an Allied CV TF at relatively close range, then fired all of their torpedoes at different targets and hit them.

I mentioned Oi and Kitikami once and was educated that their torpedo cruiser mod was before December 1941 and that the IJN converted them again out of that role just before the war broke out. I guess their fleet exercises did not show them to be effective because of air power taking them out.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 4:32:12 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of the 4 pipers in the DEI managed to launch torpedoes at a Japanese invasion TF (I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe) at longer range and even managed to hit some of their targets. They did not fire their guns so the Japanese who did not see the American DDs had no clue what as attacking them.

I think that it was preferred to launch torpedoes prior to the enemy detecting the DDs and prior to any naval gunfire. If the torpedoes were not going to hit, then the ships opened fire.

Think if the Oi and the Kitakami were together and surprised an Allied CV TF at relatively close range, then fired all of their torpedoes at different targets and hit them.

I mentioned Oi and Kitikami once and was educated that their torpedo cruiser mod was before December 1941 and that the IJN converted them again out of that role just before the war broke out. I guess their fleet exercises did not show them to be effective because of air power taking them out.


They were also slower than the other light cruisers plus, if I remember correctly, the IJN was running short of torpedo mounts and needed those.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 8:22:19 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe


Yes.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 8
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/23/2020 8:35:42 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		IIRC the 4 pipers hit a couple of ships at Balik but then the confused IJN started torping their own ships.....

I quite like the 4 pipers early war (and the S-boats). Dutch boats are gold.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 9
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/24/2020 3:21:45 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Long Lance is called that for a reason IJN used the range all the time, sometimes very effective like at Savo island


IIRC the longer range settings on the Type 93 were rarely used in combat - IJN practice was to dump them using the fast speed settings.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 10
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/24/2020 4:06:05 PM   
porpoisehead


Posts: 26
Joined: 10/16/2020
Status: offline 		Interesting stuff! I looked up the Long Lance and, holy crap, it's bigger than my car! I would not want to be on the receiving end...

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 11
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/24/2020 5:15:46 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		Even at high speed 'short range' settings I think Long Lances had greater range than Mk15s at low speed / long range.

(in reply to porpoisehead)
Post #: 12
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/25/2020 1:05:41 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

At the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (at night) the Japanese also used torps to good effect against the four DDs escorting BBs South Dakota and Washington, but failed to hit the BBs - likely overestimated the American's speed or underestimated the range. I don't know the launch range, but the BBs were firing at them so they probably launched as soon as they had visuals of something moving


From what I've read, the Japanese launched another round of torpedoes at Washington after Kirishima had been knocked out. However, by that time Washington had turned away, and one of the torpedoes is reported to have exploded when it went into the U.S. battleship's wake. (A massive ship traveling at speed leaves a great deal of turbulent water behind it.)

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 13
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/25/2020 5:49:18 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		24k yards at 48 knots for the long lance
Mk 15 - 15k yards at 26 knots - long range
Mk 15 - 6k yards at 45 knots - short range

Ouch.

Of course they could also hurt IJN ships as was demonstrated in the battle of Samar.....touchy little buggers. I think there is also speculation that Mikuma had one of hers go off at Midway.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 14
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 12/26/2020 1:59:01 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead

Interesting stuff! I looked up the Long Lance and, holy crap, it's bigger than my car! I would not want to be on the receiving end...

There is one one on display at Anapolis if you ever get by ....

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to porpoisehead)
Post #: 15
RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships - 1/11/2021 11:35:21 AM   
Dgsbdy

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/10/2014
Status: offline 		Tamechi Hara IJN, "Destroyer Captain" was his book, great read. He perfected Japanese destroyer technique before the war but not many appeared to have adhered to it. The way he described it, he found that you have a line of ships or even a single target ahead, "crossing the T". You approach at high speed in a parabola, (ellipse?) . The curving approach keeps shells from getting a track on you. You have to get within 5000 yards, which means you are going to have shells falling all around you on the way in, even from 5"guns. When in range at 5000, he would go hard over, creating the "peak" or curve at the tip of the parabola, releasing the torpedoes in a fan shaped but aimed spread as he went through the turn, then completing the parabola on the way out. Even radar controlled guns would have a hard time tracking and hitting a curving target, and it was a faster approach and escape than zig zagging.

He also pioneered, by accident, a counter against skip bombing, rather than zig zagging during one skip bombing attempt by A-20's or B 26's, he at the last moment ordered full speed ahead, no evasion. The planes came at him broadside, his gunners could take a much better aim, and the Shigure brought down both planes, the rapid hits spoiling their aim, and one plane ditched on the far side of the destroyer and the other limped over the horizon and ditched. Flames and smoke from Shigure's smokestack from the sudden surge allegedly made surviving members of the flight think the destroyer was hit and they went off to find other game

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 16
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Historical torpedo tactics of warships Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.875