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is there any point in mechanized artillery?

 
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is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 11:34:39 AM   
mahaniok

 

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Status: offline 		So I can have normal artillery with trucks. Why would I ever build a much more expensive mechanized artillery, with much smaller gun and much more fuel consumption?
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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 12:48:56 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Status: offline 		Because you can put on some decent armor. Even just 100mm would be a relevant value for the callibre calcualtion - on par with Advanced Battledress.

See 5.12.3.4. for details

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/15/2021 12:50:41 PM >

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 1:13:09 PM   
AgentFransis

 

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Status: offline 		Yes it makes them more resilient to attacks but unless things are going very wrong your artillery is not getting attacked at all, especially if you only use it for ranged attacks. In the early game they're too expensive and by the mid game they're pretty much obsolete and you should switch to rocket or missile.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 1:13:31 PM   
Pratapon51

 

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Status: offline 		Hard target vs. soft, tracked vs wheeled (or 'foot') movement type, self-propelled and not vulnerable to truck destruction.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 1:17:42 PM   
yutowap33

 

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Status: offline 		That depends on what you need. I use large independent arti formations in support role, upgrading to mechanized arti will give me extra armor I don't need and it's fuel requirements put a dent in my effort to supply the front line.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 1:27:07 PM   
Pratapon51

 

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Status: offline 		Depends on context and doctrine, of course. That said, gun artillery IMO still has a use most of the game because of staying power and multi-attack ability, making it a lot harder for enemy units to break through in a combined engagement. It'd matter more if the AI fielded artillery support more consistently for backline-on-backline attack.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 2:40:21 PM   
Clux


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Status: offline 		Right now its kinda useless, its very heavy, has less defense attack than regular artillery, its pretty expensive, with 25mm polymer armor you're fine but so its artillery with Heavy Combat Armor... It would be nice if its weight were less, could be used in OOBs formations instead of regular motorized artillery, had a bonus in counter battery fire (due being able to quickly change position) and had higher attack value than the regular artillery at the same caliber (since it can be fielded faster and normally has auto-loading systems)

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 4:21:03 PM   
jimwinsor


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Status: offline 		They would be considered "mechanized" for posture stratagems like Blitzkrieg? If so you'd want to put them in your tank brigades to maximize the posture bonuses.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 5:28:23 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

They would be considered "mechanized" for posture stratagems like Blitzkrieg? If so you'd want to put them in your tank brigades to maximize the posture bonuses.

This was in the patchnots of the last beta:
"-MissileLauncher and RocketLauncher and other mechanized Launchers now use the Gun Tactics Skill (instead of Tank Tactics)"
So, they used to. But propably no longer?

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/15/2021 6:35:00 PM   
aguvenli

 

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Status: offline 		Only one way to find out. A unit's type is listed in the combat odds preview / unit selection screen.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/19/2021 11:22:08 PM   
Uemon

 

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Status: offline 		There is only one point to mechanized artillery and im surprised nobody pointed it out before:

Mechanized artillery can keep up with tanks!

Though obviously for what it can potentially do, its ridiculously (or even prohibitively) expensive and makes no sense whatsoever. Kinda similar to regular artillery really. All youre gonna do is drain your supply points for minimal combat difference.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 1:29:45 AM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

There is only one point to mechanized artillery and im surprised nobody pointed it out before:

Mechanized artillery can keep up with tanks!

Though obviously for what it can potentially do, its ridiculously (or even prohibitively) expensive and makes no sense whatsoever. Kinda similar to regular artillery really. All youre gonna do is drain your supply points for minimal combat difference.
Truck or APC drawn artillery are faster than tanks, *much* faster per cost spent.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 4:31:20 AM   
GuardsmanGary

 

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Status: offline 		If the AI is fielding a lot of artillery and you still want to conduct artillery bombardments in relative safety the extra protection of mechanized artillery performs quite well against counter-battery fire. Not that I've ever run into an AI fielding excessive amounts of artillery...

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 9:32:28 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GuardsmanGary

If the AI is fielding a lot of artillery and you still want to conduct artillery bombardments in relative safety the extra protection of mechanized artillery performs quite well against counter-battery fire. Not that I've ever run into an AI fielding excessive amounts of artillery...

The same should be true if the enemy uses a lot of airforces.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 10:28:27 AM   
Uemon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

There is only one point to mechanized artillery and im surprised nobody pointed it out before:

Mechanized artillery can keep up with tanks!

Though obviously for what it can potentially do, its ridiculously (or even prohibitively) expensive and makes no sense whatsoever. Kinda similar to regular artillery really. All youre gonna do is drain your supply points for minimal combat difference.
Truck or APC drawn artillery are faster than tanks, *much* faster per cost spent.


Are they? I thought mech artillery with biggest engine was faster? Nevermind then.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 4:56:55 PM   
newageofpower


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Status: offline 		Truck arty doesn't care about the weight of the arty. Light Diesel Engine Truck with >95 Engine Roll gets max (player) ground movespeed, +20%. This works even when towing gigantic 300mm Artillery; no malus to speed.

Mech arty has medium hull chassis, which gives innate -10% movespeed. Then you have the weight of the gun and the armor. So you'll be lucky to hit 0% movespeed modifier with a large gun and decent armor, even with Triple Diesel engine. With enough field testing and polymer armor you might get to +5 or 10% speed.

Tanks are even slower, except for Light Tanks with lots of field testing and high engine rolls. It's pretty impractical to get Medium/Heavy tanks past +10% movespeed. Most players are happy with a "mere" -20% speed penalty on medium and heavy tanks, especially for earlier marks.

Considering the gigantic cost differential between multiple heavy diesels and a light diesel, trucks arty makes mech arty worthless in Shadow Empire.

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 1/20/2021 4:59:05 PM >

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 5:28:37 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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Status: offline 		Tracked vehicles have a much lower base movement cost than wheeled vehicles offroad, though - they're faster by one-third on plains, for example. I don't think independent artillery can be equipped with APCs for tracked movement, either - at least I couldn't find any option to raise a mechanized artillery formation the last time I invested in APCs and looked for it.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 8:59:16 PM   
AgentFransis

 

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Status: offline 		That's true but motorized artillery is fast enough for any practical need. It mostly needs to keep up with the infantry anyway since tanks hardly need the arty support.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 10:16:30 PM   
Uemon

 

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Status: offline 		Sadly i think Vic needs to rework artillery and rocket/missile launchers, they are simply impractical for how much they cost. Artillery in particular, if you use ranged attack option, its prohibitively expensive to operate. Usually 2 motorized artillery brigades max out my early logistics completely with just the ammo heh.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 10:29:29 PM   
AgentFransis

 

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Status: offline 		Two full artillery brigades is a massive amount for the early game. Usually two, at most four battalions is more than enough for me in an early war. You also want battalions so you can attach them to the infantry brigades to get the command bonus.

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/20/2021 11:57:21 PM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

Sadly i think Vic needs to rework artillery and rocket/missile launchers, they are simply impractical for how much they cost. Artillery in particular, if you use ranged attack option, its prohibitively expensive to operate. Usually 2 motorized artillery brigades max out my early logistics completely with just the ammo heh.

Rockets and especially Missiles are pretty good, because it's very hard to stop them from plastering your infrastructure.

I agree that the way mech arty works needs buffs to be more realistic. Right now armored crew + non-mech arty is basically strictly superior to self-propelled arty, which shouldn't be the case at all.

IRL self-propelled guns don't derive much survivability from their armor (it's very thin and only intended to prevent near-misses from being kills) but the fact they can deploy, do a rapid fire mission (extremely effective with MRSI) in under a minute, then GTFO and reposition for the next fire mission before counterbattery attacks land.

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 1/21/2021 12:03:12 AM >

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/28/2021 6:25:01 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Status: offline 		I just had this one pop up in my YouTube feed. I have not yet seen it myself, but I think it might be usefull for this discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZowkN8Q1Prw

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/28/2021 7:21:10 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I just had this one pop up in my YouTube feed. I have not yet seen it myself, but I think it might be usefull for this discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZowkN8Q1Prw

Okay, let us see:
- Ability to actually keep pace with the Tanks.
Ingame: Excluding roads, tracked is always slightly faster then wheel. On Plains Wheels take 150% the AP.
On top of limiting how far the whole unit could move in case it is inside the formation, this could also limit how many attacks you had left after reaching the combat position.

- be able to be used in the actuall attack, rather then pre-emptive ranged attack:
Independant towed/foot artillery is usually used for Ranged attacks, to shell the enemy as part of a siege. However it can be used in actuall combat - both offensive and defensive - where it is subject to enemy artillery fire and enemy breakthroughs.
So this would be a question about how much better at resisting the Mecha Artillery is to enemy artillery fire and broken through small arms
Artillery in the defense does serve at preveneting enemy breakthroughs, thanks to having many attacks

- More resistance to small arms fire then towed artillery:
In the game, this is a mixed bag:
1. It has 220 base Armor strenght, rather then the 50 of unarmored Artillery. If you give the normal Artillery +200 Armor strenght with combat armor, it would be unfair to not also give the Mech Artillery +200 Armor Strenght
2. Mechanized Artillery does count as hard target, wich usually means a halving of the incomming damage from most sources. But it also has less HP vs Infantry. And I am unsure if/how sideskirts would apply here.
I can not really say how well it performs without a test

- Resistance to counter battery fire
In the game that kinda falls under the units HP and entrenchment.
The ability to quickly change positions would mean a higher HP

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 23
RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/29/2021 10:23:36 AM   
BlueTemplar


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Status: offline 		EDIT : This is not just about defense & hit points, don't forget about caliber/armor thickness !

It's much easier to put thick armor plates on hard targets compared to soft ones...

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

They would be considered "mechanized" for posture stratagems like Blitzkrieg? If so you'd want to put them in your tank brigades to maximize the posture bonuses.

This was in the patchnots of the last beta:
"-MissileLauncher and RocketLauncher and other mechanized Launchers now use the Gun Tactics Skill (instead of Tank Tactics)"
So, they used to. But propably no longer?

Hmm, but you said yourself :
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Units have a Movement type (Foot, Wheel, Track), a Combat type (Infantry, Gun, Tank) and a binary hardness (Soft/hard target).

However of those 3, only the movement type is currently shown.
While you are pretty unlikely to get infantry that uses anything but foot (or wheel for motorized) movement type, Buggies do fight as Tanks but move as wheeled. So you have to treat those 3 as seperate things altogether

So anything specifically Wheeled or Tracked (including Motorbike Infantry, Trucks, Buggies, APCs), Walkers (and also maybe Automated Turrets, Aircraft (and Jetpack Infantry ??)?) would be affected by Blitzkrieg / Fluid Defense / Recon in Force ?

Because if it was about Combat type : Tank only, why would not the Postures say "Tank", rather than "Mechanized" ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/29/2021 10:38:47 AM >

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/29/2021 10:50:57 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

Because if it was about Combat type : Tank only, why would not the Postures say "Tank", rather than "Mechanized" ?

Because the game is in early access, half the mechanics might not be set and it has a single developer/programmer.

And as the saying goes: "The 2 most common problems in programming a cache invalidations, naming things and off-by-one errors."

Also the text on the Stratagem is only a string. And not even auto-generated one. It might not actually explain what the card affects are anymore.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/29/2021 10:52:39 AM >

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/29/2021 11:16:09 AM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

Because the game is in early access

Why would you think so ? It isn't mentioned anywhere, the game version is bigger than 1.0, and since the "Open Beta" is called "beta" and not "alpha", this suggests that the game itself is not "beta"... though on the other hand the developer still seems to be adding new features... so depends what do you mean by "early access"/"beta" I guess ?

But anyway, what kind of units did you see those "mechanized" modifiers affect / not affect ?

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RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/29/2021 11:17:31 AM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Tracked vehicles have a much lower base movement cost than wheeled vehicles offroad, though - they're faster by one-third on plains, for example. I don't think independent artillery can be equipped with APCs for tracked movement, either - at least I couldn't find any option to raise a mechanized artillery formation the last time I invested in APCs and looked for it.

Have you tried making a custom "Foot" Arty/APC Battlegroup ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I just had this one pop up in my YouTube feed. I have not yet seen it myself, but I think it might be usefull for this discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZowkN8Q1Prw

Thanks, this was quite informative !

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
Post #: 27
RE: is there any point in mechanized artillery? - 1/29/2021 4:43:53 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Tracked vehicles have a much lower base movement cost than wheeled vehicles offroad, though - they're faster by one-third on plains, for example. I don't think independent artillery can be equipped with APCs for tracked movement, either - at least I couldn't find any option to raise a mechanized artillery formation the last time I invested in APCs and looked for it.

Have you tried making a custom "Foot" Arty/APC Battlegroup ?

I did not consider it because of the -15% attack penalty, but I suppose that is actually a valid alternative to investing in mechanized artillery models. 300mm arty should have more firepower than the 180mm maximum for mechanized even with the -15% penalty (doubly so on the defensive), the APCs are more mobile and APC-towed artillery doesn't require protection from a separate unit since the APCs protect the guns against breakthrough, which is particularly useful for closing encirclements. So now that you've mentioned it, it does make the actual mechanized artillery model type sound rather bad.

< Message edited by Soar_Slitherine -- 1/29/2021 4:44:34 PM >

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Post #: 28
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