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T32 - 1/22/2021 3:08:03 PM   
loki100


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31 January 1942

This update is based on the on-map situation at the end of the T32.

Background

I’ll change the reporting structure a bit so as to discuss each of the main sectors across the eight turns rather than a turn by turn summary.

Leningrad

By early January the newly created Volkhov Front had made gains and had mostly cleared the Germans from the shores of Lake Ladoga. A series of German attacks from 5-18 January 1942 stopped this local offensive and drove Soviet forces back almost to their starting lines. However, in turn this exhausted the local German forces and by 24 January, Volkhov Front had managed a secure land connection to Leningrad.

[key issue on this sector – you can only take what is offered, its really hard to build up critical mass given the supply problems]

Kalinin-Rzhev

This sector attacked on 14 December and gained a small breakthrough south of Torzhok with this steadily escalating into a clear breakthrough by 27 December. Linked with the gains by Western Front this started to threaten Rzhev. Soviet cavalry managed to briefly liberate the city on 3 January 1942 as the Germans pulled back under pressure from Western Front. The city was lost to a German counterattack but then retaken on 11 January as the Germans fell back.

After a short rest, elements of the Kalinin Front managed to break the German lines south of Rzhev encircling several German divisions.

[key issue on this sector – a non-assault front simply needs to stop operations every 2-3 turns]

Kaluga-Tula-Orel

The first week of the Soviet counter-attack was limited to this sector. Western Front made some limited gains around Podolsk and Bryansk Front managed to break through the weakly held German front to the east of Tula. By 20 December fighting was going on all along this sector but with limited gains.

By the 27 December, both Fronts were in action across the entire line with Western Front breaking the German defensive line and Bryansk Front regaining Tula.



Western Front sustained this pressure into early January [1] but Bryansk Front was unable to move beyond Tula. By 10 January, AGC was starting to crumble under the sustained pressure [2] but both Western and Bryansk Fronts (this is now set as an Assault Front too) were becoming exhausted. This led to the liberation of Kaluga by 17 January.



[3]
[key issue here – Assault fronts recover quickly and have the MP to exploit gaps. Also the Soviets can probably afford to use echelon targets on a single sector – and given the importance of Moscow, this is a good choice]

The South

10 January saw the first significant gains on this sector. Early fighting had been localised as the Soviets lacked the forces to generate a sustained attack. However, elements of Southern Front managed to liberate Rostov and South-Western Front had regained most of the critical rail line running south of Voronezh. Over the following weeks, the Germans steadily pulled back from their positions to the east of Rostov.

[key issue here – regaining Rostov is essential for the VP score, really nothing else matters and any gains are likely to be lost in Spring-Summer 1942 in any case].

T32: 24 January 1942

At Leningrad, Volkhov Front has managed to secure a reasonably deep defensive belt covering Lake Ladoga.



Several things worth noting. At the moment this sector has some of my best commanders as protecting Leningrad has been a major goal. Supply remains a real challenge. The dual track rail via Kalinin is helpful but most of the freight is being claimed further east. The main supply routes are the 2 single track rails to the north. One practical problem is it becomes very hard to refit under-strength formations (we’ll talk about logistics in the related post).

To help, I am using one of my NKPS formations. At this point it is repairing the rails next to Shisselburg (as it is even harder to push supply and replacements into Leningrad) but it will create a ‘super-depot’ soon.
Situation at Moscow is better.



Following my capture of Kaluga the local German lines fell apart. As a reminder, at this stage of the war well supplied Mech Divisions (the few you have left) can be very mobile (if vulnerable in combat). Allow them to build up their CPP (to protect the MP) and they can exploit this sort of gap.

To the south, there is very little happening. In practice this sector is a potential death trap when the Germans attack again in 1942 so anything I take, I’ll lose. The units from Iran are reinforcing Southern Front and may make it possible to briefly retake Stalino.

Since I am cautious (or just pessimistic), a fortification line is being constructed at Stalingrad [4].


The order of battle reflects the severe problems the Germans have in bringing up replacements and the impact of the weather on their ready tanks.
I’m struggling to keep my Fronts below their command capacity, which is why several MDs are in use. At Moscow the Moscow MD and the MDZ are handy as their formations can dig entrenchments over level 1 which means I can set up prepared lines just in case.



A few things worth noting. The Soviets start to gain a cluster of ‘Reserve’ Armies at this stage. As such they are not much use (their low TOE hampers their command effectiveness) but can still be placed on depots to improve their capacity. Also many flip to normal armies (some even to Guards) as 1942 progresses. So as with the at-start Corps, don’t disband them.

I could have 3 assault fronts but am only using 2. In part as I am still short of admin pts (I had 9 left at the end of that turn) and the 20 cost is a real drain but also I’m not sure where I want to place this. At the moment the ability to dig in over level 1 forts is attractive.

Losses.



Again a few things to note. While the Axis losses are high, most are disabled (the weather effect) and a large number of them will return come the Spring. This might give German players a hint as to how to handle refits from say October onwards. There is relatively little to gain to pushing replacement manpower up to the front line formations given that most will then be sent back as disabled. The time to rest and refit the Ostheer is April-May 1942.

Note I have lost 3.3m men, 2m as permanent losses. At this stage of the war my manpower pool was down to 210,000 (mainly due to refitting all the returning rifle divisions).

To put this in context, I had the equivalent of 238 Rifle Divisions (on map) and 7 of these were Gds (6 in the 2 Corps). 12 Mechanized Divisions were still in action (these will convert to Rifle Divisions fairly soon). 13 Cavalry Corps (the maximum possible) and 26 Cavalry Divisions. As off-map Support Units I have 48 tank brigades (almost all attached to the Cavalry Corps at this stage).

[1] Key here is this is the one sector where I have an operational reserve. An army can attack for 2-3 turns, and then fall back and be replaced. Since it is an ‘assault’ front, I can maintain a relatively high CPP and that not only helps with combat power but also keeps my MP relatively high.

[2] Since it has lost the fort line it is now fighting in the open, the destruction is less related to direct combat losses and more damaged elements due to the winter attrition rules. But those losses can’t be replaced (probably till April-May) as the German logistics system is under severe strain.

[3] Even worn down by fairly constant action, the Gds Rifle Corp is central to these set piece assaults. There, combined with its 3 attached rifle brigades, it contributed 540 of the original 779 CV.

[4] Something to watch out for is that forts over level 2 are very expensive in terms of their supply cost (as are air bases over level 1). So can only be built in areas with good supply – or very slowly. Some of those will not be really ready (spoiler) for when they are needed in the summer of 1942.


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Post #: 31
Game Concepts: Logistics - 1/22/2021 3:13:36 PM   
loki100


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Logistics

We have discussed the logistics model in a separate thread, so here I’ll focus on what it means for the Soviet player.
The real issue for the Soviet player at this stage is you have sectors where you have relatively few problems (such as Moscow) as you are near to your National Supply Sources (NSS) and areas where the single track rails, small railyards and limited depots all add to major problems in supply delivery.

So let’s start with Moscow.




Before talking about logistics – note the large airbases behind Moscow. All those have built since the start of the game. They are not much use at the moment as longer ranged Level Bombers take heavy operational losses in poor weather. Come the spring, I can fill them out with both normal bombers and the heavier Il4s etc. The latter will then mostly be used to attack the German logistics network, by bombing a railyard you decrease the capacity of the attached depot.

So the basics of a WiTE2 logistics network. The NSS generate supplies etc and are given a notional importance of 0. They also have a lot of rail capacity.



They actually have more freight than they can use up but even so that is the core of the Soviet logistics system.

Freight moves from depot to depot, up the chain of priority (so a priority 1 can claim from a priority 0 but not another priority 1). So a priority 4 depot can only claim freight, not send it to another depot. So moving to Borodino:



It is taking all its received freight from Moscow. The rail yard is not fully repaired so capacity is less than it should be. However, the army command (in this case 13A) can add up to 20k of freight capacity (this may be reduced if it has missing support squads) to the depot. Sometimes this makes little difference as insufficient freight can be delivered (or stored) but here Borodino is far more efficient as a result. In turn that means the Soviet front line units can draw their supply from a closer location so they can keep their trucks for unit mobility.

On the other side of the coin, resupply to the Volkhov formations is a challenge.



There is no real need to stack a HQ there (though if you can, you should) as it receives far less than it can process in any case. Note here it is drawing supply from an intermediate depot – you always need these chains.

If you press the ‘8’ key you can an overview of how your combat units are being supplied.



So the depot we have just reviewed is the source of supply for the 12 divisions defending the upper Volkhov line. And even for a static sector, that is really not enough



Since that unit is not actually fighting it is ok for supply and ammo but if it was attacking it would soon run down its stocks.

Final bit before closing this discussion. At this stage of the game the ‘super-depots’ are of limited gain. But as the Soviets go over to the offensive (or in a supply poor region) they become critical. If a NKPS (or FBD) is stacked on a depot (and does not move in the previous turn), that depot will claim the majority of supplies from the local network. If a HQ is present to improve capacity, then such a depot can really alter the local supply networks.

To see that in practice, late 1944 (ok this is a real spoiler) and the 1 Ukrainian Front has broken the German line in Silesia, fuelled by the depot at Tarnow. Its working at capacity, pulling in the freight needed to sustain a front with 9 Mechanized or Tank Corps.



Having such a depot nearby makes it easier to send the fuel, ammunition, supply and replacements needed for such a collection of units (that Front has over 1 million men and over 6,000 tanks).

Contrast that with a normal depot that is not being allocated the freight it has the capacity to process.



The key challenge for the German player in 1941 is how to balance using their FBD rail repair HQs to push the rail lines east or to set up these super-depots. Often this boost to the local supply network is of far more value than a rail head notionally closer to the actual front line.

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Post #: 32
RE: Game Concepts: Logistics - 1/24/2021 1:39:43 AM   
robinsa


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Is it correct to understand that Grds units will be automatically upgraded on a predetermined date? Does the player have any influence over which units will be upgraded and the timing of these upgrades?

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Post #: 33
RE: Game Concepts: Logistics - 1/24/2021 2:43:28 AM   
ncc1701e


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WoW - will it be possible to export in CSV all these data regarding depots?

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 34
RE: Weather Rules (esp for the first winter) - 1/24/2021 6:57:19 AM   
Kursk1943

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Winter Weather

The second thing to note is that for the Soviets, there are no direct bonuses connected to the winter rules, the impact is all about modelling the relative lack of German preparations.

There are plenty of other interesting rules including the Lake Ladoga ice-road and the climatic oddities for the Sea of Azov., but here I’ll keep to the big picture.



Would love more info on the above items when you get a chance. Thanks for the detailed updates!



glad they are useful.

For Lake Ladoga, you get easier supply into Leningrad when the lake is frozen but the situation is really dire in those turms with enough ice to disrupt shipping but not enough to support trucks. You can't move combat units over the lake (which is why I really want a land connection to the city) in either state.

Sea of Azov is very shallow (& largely fresh water) so it freezes more readily than the Black Sea. This can really make a mess of cross sea supply but has little other effect. So it really depends on the geography of the front but units that need to draw supply off a port that is connected to the Sea will suffer in winter.

So in this game, for this winter the Azov rules have no practical impact this winter. I'm firmly on the SE shore and the Germans along the Ukrainian side.


An ice road across the Sea of Azov was actually used by parts of 1st Panzerarmy's retreat from the Caucasus in the end of January/beginnig of February 1943, while Rostov as main escape route was threatened by capture by Soviet armoured spearheads.

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RE: Weather Rules (esp for the first winter) - 1/24/2021 9:02:21 AM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

WoW - will it be possible to export in CSV all these data regarding depots?


Yes.

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WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 36
RE: Game Concepts: Logistics - 1/24/2021 9:43:28 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Is it correct to understand that Grds units will be automatically upgraded on a predetermined date? Does the player have any influence over which units will be upgraded and the timing of these upgrades?


Combat Units key off their number of wins/year date. Its a bit random so an eligible unit may not convert despite passing the thresholds.

Gds Army HQs are handled via the reinforcement system, so yes they appear from their historical source at the correct date. The WiTE1 model gives a bit of a false impression, some like 8 GA were indeed battlefield promotions but a lot were simply redesignated from the Reserve Army HQs.

But you have % caps by unit type. So x% of tank formations can be Gds in a given year, and once this cap is met, then you can't promote any more.

I'll talk about Gds air formations in a later post.

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T38 - 1/25/2021 10:00:49 AM   
loki100


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14 March 1942

This update is based on the on-map situation at the end of T38.

Background

This summary can be more brief as in this phase of the campaign most turns see relatively minor adjustments to the front. The Soviets lack the assets to really break the line and exploit and the German formations steadily recover from their low point in January. In addition to a strong seasonal element to the flow of the game, I think the game fairly naturally has these periods when, for an awful lot of effort, not much really changes in the short term.

At Leningrad, the AI pulled back enough to allow me to re-establish a link to Leningrad that was some 20-30 miles deep along the shores of Lake Ladoga.

Kalinin and NW Fronts struggled to make any gains in this period, since both were too strung out to allow them to concentrate and refit.

Even at Moscow, gains were limited. Here this was less due to Soviet weaknesses and more that the AI prioritised this sector. It took 5 turns to reach the outskirts of Vyazma.

The advantage to me of this concentration came in Southern Russia where Byransk Front managed to almost reach Orel and Central Front Kursk by 8 March. To the south, Southern and SW Fronts had regained Voroshilovgrad.

T38 – 8 March 1942

As may be obvious from the summary. this is not a phase with sweeping movements or dramatic gains. The Soviet player has the initiative but it is limited (in reality you can pick one sector where you can try to make sustained gains – almost everywhere else it is a case of taking what is offered). You are very reliant on the cavalry formations for mobility as you steadily lose the last of your Tank and Mechanized Divisions. As discussed in the last post, at the far northern and southern ends of the line supply is also a constraint, even if you can bring in fuel and ammunition, you can’t readily replace losses.

Looking at the front lines from north to south.

Leningrad-Lake Ilmen is now stalemated, I have a good connection to the city and the start of a decent depot network. The gamble is every time I risk an attack I may well fail and bring the whole, rather fragile, defensive line down.



The long front across the Kalinin-Valdai sector is much the same. Since the dual track rail towards Leningrad is firmly in my hands I am content to let this stall as well.



Around Moscow, Western Front has battered its way to the outskirts of Vyazma. Bryansk Front has finally gained some momentum as the Germans weaken, in part by choice as the AI has focussed on holding Vyazma and partly as this sector is open terrain so its hard for either side to stall an offensive once it has some momentum. As you can see, Orel should fall in the next turn and there is a small pocket to the north.




In Southern Russia effectively both sides have largely disengaged. I can’t take Kursk-Kharkov and strongly suspect I’ll just lose everything in a renewed German offensive. As maybe clear, I have started creating my defensive lines (and building airbases to the east and north of the Don).



The respective OOBs reflect recent events. The Germans are actually recovering (the low point was less than 900 ready tanks) and have a substantive reserve (this will be formations refitting and also the manpower lost to attrition starting to filter back). I’ll talk about the Soviet reserve in the second post.

Worth noting two things from the detailed Soviet list. First I am making a lot of use of the MDs, especially the two connected with Moscow. This is less due to command capacity (between Western and Bryansk Fronts I have a lot due to the Assault Front rules) and more that the formations linked to the MDs can dig fortifications over level 1. Now while I expect the AI to go for Stalingrad it makes a choice and if it goes for Moscow I need to be ready.

Second a tranche of fairly weak ‘Reserve Armies’ appear around now. Historically they were used for training new formations but in WiTE2 that goes on in the Reserve. They lack support squads so will fail most leader checks but are handy to sit on depots (more capacity) and give command to units in the rear. Don’t disband them – they are also the cadres of many of your 1942 armies including several Guards and Tank Armies.



Losses so far. Perhaps the main thing to note is the number of German disabled. A number of those (10-15%) will be back come the summer and the Axis will gain from a wider improvement in their supply efficiency. That will bring a much needed batch of replacements and upgrades [1].



The list of destroyed units. I haven’t destroyed much and the AI has the manpower and production to recover those formations. Note I am still merging Rifle Brigades to reinforce weakened Rifle Divisions – especially at Leningrad where it is hard to bring in replacements.




So what now? Well the weather is going to improve and the AI will regain its offensive capacity. As maybe clear, I have more or less abandoned any more gains in the south. There is a small VP gain if I can retake say Kharkov or Stalino at this phase but the risk of over-extension is real. By contrast, if I can gain Vyazma and the broken terrain around it that will give me 3 belts of defensive terrain in front of Moscow – or a jumping off spot for a later offensive towards Smolensk (mostly over clear terrain).

In the main in WiTE2 the strong advice is never to attack ‘just because you can’ as the loss of CPP will hamper you. This phase, as the Soviet player, is possibly an exception. I may as well inflict losses and see if I can generate more Guards formations, this is my current list:



[1] – Much needed by the Axis, it is surprising how fast the Ost Heer rebounds in terms of numbers and operational capacity in early spring 1942.


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Post #: 38
Game Concepts: Production - 1/25/2021 10:03:26 AM   
loki100


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Re-building the Red Army

We’ve already looked at the production system in some detail so this post will cover some of the main issues from a Soviet perspective, especially in terms of the differences to the WiTE1.

So the big differences are:

a) The Soviet player does not build new HQs and HQs are not ‘promoted’ to Gds status on the basis of wins. All this is handled in the reinforcement routines so a key bit of advice … do not disband your HQs (either army or the early game Corps);
b) Units gain Guards status purely on the basis of wins but the total percentage within categories is also limited. There is a random element here so meeting the threshold may not trigger an immediate swap;
c) Armament points are not such an important concept;
d) Soviet factory evacuation is automated and will mostly follow the historical schedules;
e) How you build Corps size combat formations is a mix of the familiar and rather different. This is well explained in the manual so I’m not going to cover the issues here;
f) The Soviet player does not build air groups, these too are automatically generated (in this post I am going to stick to ground formations and return to the VVS in a later update).

What are you used to? Well the rules for destroyed Soviet rifle divisions being placed back in the reserve are much the same. Tank Divisions convert to Tank Brigades after a while and so on.

One other important difference is that the Soviet player receives a lot of support units as automatic builds – again in the reserve. Equally many possible SU are free to build (in terms of administrative points) – just you lack the assets to bring them back to the map. One huge gap that plagues the Soviet player for most of the game is a historic lack of Heavy ArtilIery production, you can see this from the Events log:




Those 28 I22mm guns are going to be very much in demand. This table varies from turn to turn across the game but is far more important in setting the parameters of Soviet artillery production than how many arms points you have stored.

While you are in the Events log, there is also a useful table as to how many Guards formations you have:



So to recap, you have a number of formations in the national reserve that were destroyed in the early game or automatically created for you.

If you want to create more units (and you will) then you use the build screen. Again what you can build, up to what limits and how much it costs (in terms of admin points) varies substantially across the game. For the current turn the screen shows:



Here it is worth noting that those Soviet artillery brigades function purely as off map Support Units (not on map as in WiTE1). To me, that makes them more useful, especially the light artillery variant which I will build as my shortage of 76mm guns is not so crippling.

So you have three bits of information. The cost in AP (& note these are not really a constraint), the number you currently have (and note that some units share the same pool eg all the artillery regiments) and the limit (& this number will vary a lot across the game).

On the right hand side is the TOE for the chosen unit, in this case a Rifle Division and some idea if suitable elements exist (this will include elements that can be used when the ideal one is missing).

Now not shown is your manpower pool so especially for the larger units you need to keep an eye on that (as a hint, now is not a good time to run it down to a low level). Equally you need to bear in mind your ability to supply such formations and your overall command capacity.

So the Soviet player can start to reconfigure their army but its best to be cautious at this stage. Build too much and your existing elements will be scattered across a number of incomplete units with low experience. Build too little and when you start taking losses (and you will in the Summer-Autumn of 1942) you’ll lack the reinforcements you now desperately need.


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Post #: 39
RE: T38 - 1/25/2021 10:45:18 AM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

As maybe clear, I have started creating my defensive lines (and building airbases to the east and north of the Don).





I am afraid it is not clear AT ALL. The rivers are basically INVISIBLE.

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RE: T38 - 1/25/2021 11:14:32 AM   
821Bobo


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You can turn on and off both, ground and air weather if you have problems to see frozen rivers.

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RE: T38 - 1/25/2021 11:19:50 AM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

I am afraid it is not clear AT ALL. The rivers are basically INVISIBLE.


I think it is because they are frozen - if you look at the screenshot of the same area at the top of the page the rivers are more visible and in the summer/autumn ones they are completely visible.

I'd agree that for planning purposes it would be good to have a way to see the rivers better in winter - maybe a hotkey to switch the hex art back to summer or at least to 'thaw' the rivers for display purposes.

[Edit - looks like the devs are one step ahead of us !]

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 1/25/2021 11:21:15 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: T38 - 1/25/2021 11:23:51 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown


...

I am afraid it is not clear AT ALL. The rivers are basically INVISIBLE.


Well the view is zoomed to level 4 and yes they are all frozen. You can amend how the weather shows on the map to showing all effects (my usual), ground or air or none - when you effectively have the summer map view. Like a lot in this game, you can flip views to suit your needs.

I tend to use the summer view at the end of winter when I am thinking about how far to go and trading off bridgeheads against over-stretched supply lines during the spring rains.

edit: Here is much the same view with the weather effects disabled. So you can flip between them or decide its more useful to have a clearer view of the underlying terrain as opposed to a visual clue as to the weather conditions:




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loki100 -- 1/25/2021 11:28:20 AM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Game Concepts: Production - 1/25/2021 12:07:20 PM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

c) Armament points are not such an important concept;
d) Soviet factory evacuation is automated and will mostly follow the historical schedules;



First of all, thanks Loki for the great AAR reports!

Then couple of questions about production:

What kind of control does the Soviet player have over production then if armaments are not important and evacuation is automatic?

In WitE1, ARM points were the leash that was yanked by the Soviet player, either by tuning the division ToEs or building armament-hungry support units. I thought that was pretty nifty system to play with, although it definitely had many weak points and deficiencies.

Is there a production facility for every piece of equipment in WitE2 or do they still just use the generic ARMament pool? What creates the demand and sets the value for certain equipment's production rate, or is it just historically predetermined?

Is the evacuation schedule always the same or is there some random element? Can both players see the estimated evacuation dates? That will play a key role in strategic plans for both sides!

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Post #: 44
RE: Game Concepts: Production - 1/25/2021 2:14:07 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

c) Armament points are not such an important concept;
d) Soviet factory evacuation is automated and will mostly follow the historical schedules;



First of all, thanks Loki for the great AAR reports!

Then couple of questions about production:

What kind of control does the Soviet player have over production then if armaments are not important and evacuation is automatic?

In WitE1, ARM points were the leash that was yanked by the Soviet player, either by tuning the division ToEs or building armament-hungry support units. I thought that was pretty nifty system to play with, although it definitely had many weak points and deficiencies.

Is there a production facility for every piece of equipment in WitE2 or do they still just use the generic ARMament pool? What creates the demand and sets the value for certain equipment's production rate, or is it just historically predetermined?

Is the evacuation schedule always the same or is there some random element? Can both players see the estimated evacuation dates? That will play a key role in strategic plans for both sides!



well with praise like that, lest see if we can help you

I'll assume you've read Red Lancer's basic discussion thread on production so I'll concentrate on the specifics.

1) Arms pts do matter, but in WiTE1 they were really important, in WiTE2 I very rarely pay attention to them - so its that shift of perspective that matters. When I first started testing WiTE2 (over 5 years ago), I kept on asking why I had so many and then realised it was because the production model works off different key criteria

2) In a way the system builds off WiTW. Many elements are named and come from designated factories but those factories build the basic frame/chassis not the final product. So you have T34 factories, IS factories (later of course), Yak factories, Pe-2/3 factories. They operate taking arms pts to build frames (up to ther capacity) and then stuff like the guns/fuel tanks/radars are added to make that particular model (this last stage of building the actual tank etc takes supplies from your HI). In addition a lot of elements are produced from the generic HI such as the non-manpower elements of artillery and infantry squads. Some of this is built to need, some in fixed amounts but even the built to need often has a cap. For practical purposes that cap (as in the image from the Event log above) matters more than the resource input. I think this effectively replaces the role that arms pts play in WiTE1.

3) so not a lot, all the complex rules over expansion, all the odd gamey tricks of sending your factories to be captured, or moving them to reduce production fall away. So all those long discussions about how much HI/Arms Pt production the Soviet player needs to save ... no longer of any importance.

4) equally all that arcane lore of having German motorised divisions screaming around the map to trap factories can be forgotten. The factory, by default, moves on its historic date to its historic location with historic capacity on arrival. The Soviet player can move it earlier, it arrives earlier but with more damage, the German player can force an earlier transfer by capturing the city before the historical deadline. It arrives with more damage.

5) While in many ways this is a complex game (ahem) there has been a deliberate effort to reduce some of the demand on players (&, as a bonus, stop some of the more ahistoric actions based on nothing but the WiTE1 game engine). The production system is one - it works mostly in the background. The skill for a Soviet player is to manage the packaging of that production into combat and support units and between replacements and fresh formations. And that damn heavy artillery shortage is one that forces some hard choices and will see the Soviets very reliant on mortars and 76mm guns for much of 1942 and 1943.

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RE: Game Concepts: Production - 1/25/2021 2:31:29 PM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

4) equally all that arcane lore of having German motorised divisions screaming around the map to trap factories can be forgotten. The factory, by default, moves on its historic date to its historic location with historic capacity on arrival. The Soviet player can move it earlier, it arrives earlier but with more damage, the German player can force an earlier transfer by capturing the city before the historical deadline. It arrives with more damage.



What about factories that were not moved? For instance, lets say I want to go for the Gorki complex in order to cripple Soviet vehicle production, what happens to those factories? IRL the Germans did consider bombing the industry in Gorki, it was that important.

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RE: Game Concepts: Production - 1/25/2021 2:48:27 PM   
loki100


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at the moment, you can't move them so they are lost. If you get to Gorki, you've won the game.

as in a lot else, if you want a single big message - don't play this as if it was WiTE1 with a different map.

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T48 - 1/27/2021 7:21:37 AM   
loki100


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23 May 1942

This update is based on the on-map situation at the end of T48.

Background

As in the last report, I’ll be brief here. The Soviet winter offensive continued much as reported above. By 21 March the Germans abandoned Vyazma [1] but had retaken Voroshilovgrad in the south (and it then changed hands several times up to mid-April). By 28 March, Bryansk Front finally liberated Orel. North of Bryansk-Orel, 5 April saw torrential rains that brought the attacks by Western and Bryansk Front to an end.



The rains briefly eased by 2 May (T45) and the Germans continued their offensive against Sevastopol.



[2]

The city fell the following week as the Germans started their 1942 offensive. Bryansk Front was driven back around Orel


[3]

To the south, the Germans probed the Soviet lines north of Rostov. This pattern of localised attacks in the south and stalemate in the north persisted into the following week until the main German offensive broke on 17 May.

T48

For context, the AI makes a choice as to whether to go for Moscow or the VP locations in the south. This adds a nice bit of tension, not helped as it persisted in a pattern of army size attacks around Orel and the Donets bend when it could in April-early May. One of these targets is a good set up for Moscow with all that clear terrain up to the Oka, the other clearly sets up a drive on Stalingrad.

Well it made up its mind



And it also managed to push over the Don east of Rostov.



Now this is a sector where the rail nets oddly favour the Axis over the Soviets. Up to the Donets/Don line, assuming they have repaired the dual track lines and have a decent depot structure, the Axis can bring fresh formations, replacements and freight relatively close to the front.

The Soviets are dependent on their link to Moscow via 3/4 single track rails – use those for troop movements and you seriously reduce your movement of supplies. And of course, you (should) have a lot of units at Moscow.



Now you have two compensating advantages. Stalingrad is a major railyard, so while the single track rails will become congested, at least you have a lot of trains available to send out [4].



The other is you can use the National Reserve. You can set an arrival hex, it must be at least 10 hexes from the nearest Axis unit and pull formations (including entire armies) from the reserve. If you have kept a proper strategic reserve this is the time to use it.

This is not a one-sided gain though. Such formations arrive with 0 CPP, their HQs empty of Support Units. So it will take 1-2 turns (terrain and ground conditions affecting movement speed) to hurl them into the front line and they will have no CPP (as you will have gathered, this is not ideal).




While we are on the topic, there is another problem. I am going to have to allocate more formations (here and the Caucasus) than I can easily resupply (even using the reserve to funnel in fresh units). So I am going to really struggle to replace local losses. My solutions are to extract the damaged units back to the reserve to refit or use my stock of Rifle Brigades as emergency replacement formations (using the merge function).

So before we move on, usual summary screens.

Losses so far:



Air losses (I’ll talk about managing the air war in a later post) – my losses this turn were grim as I committed my level bombers to hitting the axis logistics system. I also used a lot of recon effort to work out how much the AI had sent towards Stalingrad.



And the order of battle summary. Note the Germans have rebuilt their Panzer divisions.



[1] In the main the AI is much more aware of the risk of encirclement – both tactically and over a larger scale. You will still pocket more than against a human opponent but it makes good choices in this respect.

[2] Few things worth noting there. I have a lot of units stacked in the city (this is the benefit of the city fort concept – and I find it is only useful if you commit 5+ divisions). Attacking losses are grim as WiTE2’s combat model penalises attempts to take defended fortifications or urban hexes (note that Sevastopol is treated as clear). The Germans reduced the fort by another level due to the number of infantry elements they contributed.

[3] These intense small sector offensives are very effective. My basic morale/experience is low enough that units will collapse under sustained pressure. Note my obsession with defending the line of the Don.

[4] The hugely enjoyable Stalingrad-Berlin campaign opens with this in German hands. Reclaiming it, and repairing it so it functions fully is utterly critical to any Soviet counter-offensive back towards Stalino. In general, the two late war starts are great fun in WiTE2 as they present very different challenges to 1941.


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The UI - 1/27/2021 7:24:11 AM   
loki100


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The UI

Since this has come up in some of the discussions in this thread, seems useful to have a quick look at the UI. I’ll discuss the Commander’s Report in a different post as it is such an important tool with so much additional functionality.

First off, there are often many ways to do something. So I can change the priority of a depot from the top of the screen, from opening the city details or simply right clicking on the hex:



Note I could have disbanded the depot that way, built an airbase (or expanded an existing one) or ordered the creation of a new fortified unit. This concept runs across the game, do this sort of in-game management using the approach that is easiest for you.

Right clicking also opens up all the various map modes or gives you access to the information screens.

Second the map view can be swapped around. We have already shown how you can display (or not) weather conditions on the map.

I tend to play with the supply network showing and hex control, I sometimes use the fort level view, sometimes not.

But for example I could add the VP locations to the view:



Show unit status (not just reserve/refit but also fresh arrivals or those due to be withdrawn). This shows my units that heed to refit (outlined in blue) after I had set my criteria using the Commander’s Report. Ideally they should be out of ZoCs and preferably based at a depot.

I use this mode a lot as it allows quick identification of the units I want to refit and I can then move them out of the front lines – well I can if I can spare them.



Another view is an estimate of the quality of command for each unit (this picks up command chain, leader values and supply state). I don’t use it very often but it can be handy at spotting gaps:



There green is good, red is poor. The fortified zones suffer from reporting to Stavka, so are outside command range, in the wrong command relationship and not able to gain much supply. But I have (locally) a lack of command capacity.

Also as WiTW, there are a range of metrics screens you can use to track key variables. So here is the manpower losses over the last 10 turns.



Basically the Axis losses dropped radically once the winter was over, mine spikes reflect the fall of Sevastopol (only 2 divisions escaped the final collapse) and the horror show as the AI swept away my defensive lines in the last turn.

So the game gives you a lot of information and a lot of neat ways of doing things (air transport is now so much easier to conduct). Quite often you can decide to use the approach that suits you. Some of the map modes and information screens you may never really look at from game to game, but they are there if you’d find it useful.


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RE: The UI - 1/27/2021 12:35:44 PM   
Wild


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Hi loki,

The AAR is awesome and very informative.

Just a couple of questions / concerns. Are CPP perhaps too determinative? I would hate to have only 1 factor be the only thing that really mattered.

Can the strategic reserve become gamey? Pulling whole armies off the map and having them magically reappear somewhere on the other side of the map?

I know you guys have been working on this for a long time so i doubt this will be the case, but it's just a couple of things that came to mind.

Keep up the great work!

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RE: The UI - 1/27/2021 1:13:00 PM   
CapAndGown


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I notice there are stats on the number of pilots lost. I hope the game does not get down to the individual pilot level. While that concept was fun in WitP, it also added more complexity to the code making it just one more thing that could produce bugs.

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RE: The UI - 1/27/2021 2:13:12 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Hi loki,

The AAR is awesome and very informative.

Just a couple of questions / concerns. Are CPP perhaps too determinative? I would hate to have only 1 factor be the only thing that really mattered.

Can the strategic reserve become gamey? Pulling whole armies off the map and having them magically reappear somewhere on the other side of the map?

I know you guys have been working on this for a long time so i doubt this will be the case, but it's just a couple of things that came to mind.

Keep up the great work!


This is a fairly personal response (in that if reflects testing rather than game intent). Its more that if you get the CPP right, you probably are using the other tools effectively too. Not sure that makes sense but there is a lot going on to keeping your CPP high. Once you achieve that you get a number of rewards, for the Soviets they help off set the dire admin/initiative scores of a lot of your leaders as an eg (mainly for MP determination). This tends to come off operational pauses and also echelon attacks (where armies fall out of the way to be replaced - more feasible in 1944 than it is in mid-1942. You tend to get very powerful initial blows very quickly running out of steam.

Now for the German side, getting it right means phasing your moves with some care in 1941, trying to keep your infantry in zones already under your control as they move up (of course in turn, a Soviet player will be trying to deny you those zones). Later in the game, you start to face the dilemna of using your Pzrs for reserve activation (ie to stop breakthroughs) or for counter-attacks (ie to contest breakthroughs) as you can't sustain both. And needing to pull them off the line to regain their CPP (at a time when you also need them available).

As to the reserve-map transitions there are a few constraints. First it takes some discipline as those units are not sat digging in a rear defensive line (certainly still important up to late 1942). Second the distance to the front line can be an issue in poor weather. Third no CPP, means even if you then link them to a Front on Assault status (that raises the rate of regain of CPP), it'll take 3-4 turns to get them up into the 80s/90s. Finally, they need to be supplied where they appear, so can end up very short of Combat power and MP if this is marginal.

It seems to work perfectly well, not least for the first reason its hard to keep more than say 2 armies worth of formations back (& that takes some single minded planning).

quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

I notice there are stats on the number of pilots lost. I hope the game does not get down to the individual pilot level. While that concept was fun in WitP, it also added more complexity to the code making it just one more thing that could produce bugs.


It follows the WiTW method in that regard, works well and pretty much out of sight in terms of its direct impact on game play. Its how the game holds statistics such as experience (skill) and morale which are then aggregated up the air group level.



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RE: The UI - 1/27/2021 4:23:41 PM   
CapAndGown


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You mention having an assault front. What about assault armies? Does it have to be an entire front? Right now, in my Soviet game in spring of 1942, I am setting up reserve armies behind the front whose task will be to launch counter attacks on German penetrations. They are mostly subordinated directly to Stavka. I wouldn't want to have any assault fronts at this time, instead relying on local armies for counter attacks.

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RE: The UI - 1/27/2021 4:45:39 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

You mention having an assault front. What about assault armies? Does it have to be an entire front? Right now, in my Soviet game in spring of 1942, I am setting up reserve armies behind the front whose task will be to launch counter attacks on German penetrations. They are mostly subordinated directly to Stavka. I wouldn't want to have any assault fronts at this time, instead relying on local armies for counter attacks.


well I'll start with the usual point (as it can't be said too many times)

this is not WiTE1 with a dollop of WiTW. For all practical purposes its a new game and the quicker players shed their WiTE1 approach the quicker they will adapt (& the manual has about 4 pages on just the really big stuff that is different).

You set assault status at Army level (axis) or Front level (Soviet), all the attached commands then take on that characteristic (there are a load of secondary rules but that is the core relationship)

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RRs - 1/27/2021 6:20:37 PM   
wpurdom

 

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I confess I tried to get an answer to this on another thread, and got 2 answers which weren't answers to my question. So I want to try my luck with loki100 and different phrasing.

Is there any differential in German RR repair as to either time or place?
Historically, the RR destruction was more miss than hit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign and the Germans got their first trains through to Minsk and Riga very early.

In WITE1 this is modelled by having a region where repair is faster (the Baltic states, basically).

In TOAW Barbarossa scenarios this is modelled by leaving some or all RR hexes intact after conquest in early turns, varying by scenario modeller.

Is there anything like either of these mechanisms in WITE2?

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RE: RRs - 1/27/2021 7:03:46 PM   
loki100


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yes - if you capture a hex in the Baltic states in the first 4 turns (if my memory is correct) then you have a % chance it is undamaged. So you end up with a bit of a patchwork in that area of repaired stretches and the occasional break (luck or combat).

In testing, most German players are then putting the auto repair rail repair units into the components of AGN so all these odd not quite complete lines come into use without having to divert the FBD from their main tasks

As to rest, you can and should get the rail line to Minsk by about T3, but doing it takes some care in unit placement and how you handle the Bialystok pocket

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RE: Game Concepts: The Air War - 1/27/2021 7:07:46 PM   
Titan

 

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I really like WITE....I bought WITW, but really struggled with the Airwar system...Even my regular opponent did..hence we tried two games and ended both before there time and never played it again leaving with us both feeling rather confused trying to manage the aircraft which always has messy feeling. I preferred the Airsystem in WITE as it was alot easier to under stand and manage. So far every aspect of WITE looks pretty good and encouraging...however it seems the Air system seems to be that horrid confusing one that is in WITW? or has it been improved and more easily managed?

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Post #: 57
RE: Game Concepts: The Air War - 1/27/2021 10:26:19 PM   
Joel Billings


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There is an AI assist system you can use (and you can automate it so both sides have to use it). This system should be very easy to use. You tell different air operational groups to follow land units, and they set up their air directives accordingly.

It's a good place to start. Later, you can advance to using the AI assist and then adding in or modifying air directives. Lots of things have been done to make it easier to deal with the air units (the idea of AOGs that are a grouping of air units for one) so the air game should be easier to get into. One advantage is once you know how to use it, you save hundreds of mouse clicks (at least when compared to how skilled players played the air game in WitE).

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Post #: 58
T57 - 1/29/2021 8:31:58 AM   
loki100


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25 July 1942

This update is based on the end of T57

Background

By early June, the Soviet build up at Stalingrad had stalled the direct German attack towards the city on the line of the Don. However, Rostov fell on 6 June as the Germans breached the Soviet lines on the lower Don and the Germans started to steadily push south.

In response Stavka ordered Bryansk Front over to the offensive around Orel in an attempt to draw off the German reserves. Heavy German attacks from 14-24 June threw the Soviet forces back to their starting lines [1], while North Caucasus Front was being forced back into the Caucasus. By the 27 June the Soviets were just clinging to the line of the Kuban and in full retreat in the sector to the south of Stalingrad.

However, it was at Stalingrad their main blow fell. Heavily reinforced and rested, the Germans simply overwhelmed the Soviet line on the east bank of the Don.


[2]

By 11 July, the Germans had reached the outskirts of Stalingrad and defeated an attempted counter-attack by SW Front from the north, the following week saw a similar pattern as SW Front tried to deflect the German drive on the city but only succeeded in seeing its recent reinforcements wrecked in the subsequent German counter-attack.

T57

This turn saw action almost across the map. Kalinin Front was pushed back around Vyazma but managed to hold onto the city itself.


[3]

In turn, Western and Bryansk Fronts renewed their offensive around Orel. A lack of local reserves allowed the Soviets to break the German front and cavalry formations were able to push deep into the German rear, almost reaching Kursk.



Stalingrad itself saw mixed fortunes. The Germans overwhelmed the Soviet lines to the south of the city in hard fought battles while SW Front launched yet another attack from the north. This time the Soviets were able to hold onto their gains and make inroads to the south and east of the Don.


[4]

Stalingrad itself was well prepared for the expected assault.


[5]

To the south, the Germans made steady gains along the Kuban and captured several Black Sea ports.



Losses for the Soviets approaching 4.5 million men and for the Axis almost 2 million.



And the OOBs. Despite the fighting both sides are strengthening. Note I have around 40% of my airforce still in the reserve. This is due to the need to train new formations and that I lack on-map command capacity. I have 1.3 million men (SW and Stalingrad Fronts), 18,000 guns, 2,500 tanks and over 1,500 planes committed to the defence of Stalingrad (which goes some way to explain why I have local supply problems). I’ve also moved the majority of my better commanders to this sector.



Steadily producing more Guards formations. Note the conversion of one of the Reserve Armies and my commanders are slowly gaining in competence.



[1] Early variants of the Tank Corps are just really poor when forced to defend, regardless of what SU you attach.

[2] As before, I really struggle to bring in replacements here. So the wrecked formations (and I had a lot) have to be pulled back, sent to the reserve, refitted and returned. This cycle takes around 5 turns, later on this was almost a production line so I lost a new set each turn as a previous batch returned (of course without CPP).

[3] I’ve pulled most of the strategic reserve from Moscow. This sort of attack can easily wreck the equivalent of an army but lacks real depth. At worst I can control the speed of any retreat using the poor terrain.

[4] This was a real worry, that is the equivalent of another army lost while it needs to refit, cutting the single track rail running to Stalingrad from the east will make my already poor supply situation perilous. Transport aircraft around Saratov are flying in supplies (that is a NSS so works very well) and am committing some new NKPS to create super-depots with the aim of stabilising my supply situation. The useful part is that while SW Front is taking heavy losses, I can refit relatively locally due to the depot and rail network south of Saratov.

[5] If you are going to create City Forts do so with as much as you can spare. S Stalingrad is held by 2 Rifle Corps and a division, plus the brigades, so the equivalent of 9 Rifle Divisions. The city fort in Stalingrad itself allows a similar stacking despite the lack of available Corps formations. Its worth noting the City Fort brings no particular defensive benefits over those from the terrain and fortification level (which is why Sevastopol is vulnerable), it is purely a device to allow extra stacking.


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RE: T57 - 1/29/2021 5:22:47 PM   
wpurdom

 

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Tell us more about this Stalingrad fortress - something crafted by the player or appearing automatically?

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