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Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 6:29:33 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		Great Players Micro their Air and it's annoying. Though it's the META unless you're facing combatant in game that's air is far weaker than your own. When two opponents are fairly evenly matched you get decimated by the little +2 or +4 air steps loss...

I don't know a fix? Though I would rather it were not possible to micro this aspect. Not all go crazy on it. Some spread it out but it's still optimal to do it.
Post #: 1
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 9:53:31 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		Please give an example. I can't picture what you are referring to, and have never felt like I had to micro-manage air units.


(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 2
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 11:42:16 AM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		Yes I've been wishing for better fine control of air support given the micro that is necessary to become a better player.

An example of the micro:

You are invading. As attacker you turn all your air units off from support mode to mission only (which can be several clicks already).

Then on your first attack you activate only your very best and most rested fighter unit within range of the attack to fly support (click). You give it a supply truck (click). You also select your best and most rested tactical group (tactical because they have better air to air than ground attack) (click). You also give that a supply truck.(click)

You use this combo of two air units to attack the first enemy ground unit. Then you decide your next attack is on a hex which will be 8:1 odds. You decide you don't need air support so you manually turn off the tactical group and fighter group (click-click). Now you find the next most ready fighter group and turn them on for mission support (click). You make the 8:1 ground attack with no ground support selected. The attack is successful, and what's more your fighter unit tears up the enemy ground support, because the automation for your opponent has selected one of his ground attack air units to join the defence, which has low air-to-air value. Attack over. You turn off the fighter group from mission support.(click)

And so on.

The air war turns on the small margins that can only be leveraged by this kind of micro. Personally I don't mind that, but I think the UI could be lots better. A button for 'no air support for this ground attack' would be good for one (so you dont have to constantly turn on and off air units support mode during your turn.) Also being able to specify a priority order for which of your air units respond to enemy attacks in his turn would help.



(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 3
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 12:11:11 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for the example. I guess there's always room for improvement, but I personally disagree that there is any micro-management in the current system. It's just the minimal control needed.

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 4
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 1:53:57 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		To put this at rest when you fly a mission the computer will always select the best shape air unit for the job. So you don't have to micromanage it.

Managing your airforce in 3 easy steps...
#1 Put damaged or low effectiveness air units on mission mode to rest.
#2 Make a couple key air strikes.
#3 Let ground support do the rest.

Then you may recite the victory verse called "what is best in life" by Conan
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.


_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 5
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 2:43:30 PM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline 		One things to consider (maybe for WP2) is an air management screen. Idea would be list all air units, their location, strength and effectiveness and allow from that one screen to toggle the different settings.

It would be good on this screen to also be able to click a button to jump to the unit to see where it is located.

Options to select multiple units/all units and toggle settings would be helpful too.

Just a thought. I do not find it overly challenging, but this might help.



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Post #: 6
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 4:01:57 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I suppose I am one of the players who "micro manages" his air force. But I really don't consider this micro managing at all. I mean seriously has anyone here played WitE? That is micro managing, this is just a few clicks. I generally spend more time planning my turn than I actually do executing my moves. If a player can choose which land units to move and use for each attack why shouldn't he be able to choose which air units to use for each attack. Why is one micro managing when the other is not?

(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 7
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 4:52:32 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline 		I don't mind the micromanagement. It seems good to choose if you want or put them on support and let the AI decide or mission and you decide what to attack, or even some combo of the two. I like MorningDew's suggestion of an air management screen.
What I hate about the airpower is its relative weakness against land units, especially against armor. And its lack of usefulness in establishing air superiority, for instance taking way too many casualties vs 1940 French or 1941/42 Russian air units. And with a couple of attacks, its efficiency is greatly reduced to the point of needing to rest and/or add supply trucks to raise efficiency.
In WW2 terms, airpower was feared when it came to interdiction of movement, and by 1943/44, air attacks were deadly against armor. The Panzer divisions at Normandy did not dare move during daylight.
There has to be some sort of happy medium between too deadly and too nerfed, and I do not feel WarPlan has found it yet.

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JRR

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 8
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 5:55:10 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		French air units should be at 40% experience imo to have a feeling of air superiority during France 1940. Other than that, I like micromanaging my air attack.

Gaining air superiority faster will help to consume less trucks during Fall Gelb for air units.

One thing to change is the airfield attack as raised earlier in this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4953591


< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/3/2021 5:56:16 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 9
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 7:01:55 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

To put this at rest when you fly a mission the computer will always select the best shape air unit for the job. So you don't have to micromanage it.

Managing your airforce in 3 easy steps...
#1 Put damaged or low effectiveness air units on mission mode to rest.
#2 Make a couple key air strikes.
#3 Let ground support do the rest.

Then you may recite the victory verse called "what is best in life" by Conan
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.



I think you're over simplifying it saying 'you don't have to micro manage it" here Alvaro.

Yes you are right you don't have to micromanage it. But if you do, you can leverage better results. The issue isn't the micromanagement per se, it's the micromanagement implementation.

I think what's getting a consensus here is A) players do need to micro manage their airforce to get the best out of it B) this is a good thing, not a bad thing C) Some UI additions such as some form of air management flyout would be nice to streamline the micromanagement

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 10
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 7:25:42 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		My experience is that this is sometimes better to turn off full support to avoid losses. Same on the enemy turn, putting your fighters in full support mode can cause them heavy casualties against a smart human opponent.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to squatter)
Post #: 11
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 8:29:47 PM   
WraithMagus

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/22/2021
Status: offline 		Switching mission is just hitting a hotkey, and so is sending a supply truck, so I don't see this as an undue amount of player input to get what you want done and doesn't seem that much more of an investment of player time than land forces. This game also lacks artillery as distinct from infantry unlike a lot of strategy games, so it is kind of nice to actually have something the player actually has control over to tip some spot on the battlefield in their favor.

If you're that worried about making sure you use the "right" escort, however, maybe the ctrl-click mechanic could be used to specifically designate an escort you want to take? (This means more user interaction than just trusting in the computer picking the best escort, but it would be less micro than specifically changing mission setting for every air unit in the area.)

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 12
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/3/2021 8:33:12 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Personally, I don't find that there is too much micromanagement. You just need to be a little careful.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to WraithMagus)
Post #: 13
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/6/2021 11:04:54 PM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		With trucks and optimization in my last game where I didn't match my opponent (as well as effectiveness established by a couple of turns of fighter and bomber inactivity) I lost probably double what my opponent did. Of course tech also counts and whether you choose to fight at all... I am not the best optimizer but you can minimize air casualties over a rookie by 50-75% if you know precisely what you're doing!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Personally, I don't find that there is too much micromanagement. You just need to be a little careful.



< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 2/6/2021 11:07:02 PM >

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 14
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 12:26:57 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

With trucks and optimization in my last game where I didn't match my opponent (as well as effectiveness established by a couple of turns of fighter and bomber inactivity) I lost probably double what my opponent did. Of course tech also counts and whether you choose to fight at all... I am not the best optimizer but you can minimize air casualties over a rookie by 50-75% if you know precisely what you're doing!



Are you saying that a player shouldn't be able to manage his air force because it gives experienced players an advantage over beginner players? If you are, than sorry I don't buy that argument. Its like saying that the way the "horsey" moves in chess should be changed because it is too complicated for beginner players to figure out. As an experienced player I am always willing to share the benefit of my experience with both my opponents and the community as a whole. Indeed I have a suspicion that it was my sharing of this experience that led to this thread being started in the first place. I have no problem with a Rule or game mechanic being changed for legitimate historical reasons so that the game better simulates the conditions of WWII. But I am strongly opposed to changing anything to dumb the game down.

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 15
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 2:34:32 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		If we simplify the game too much it would become boring, both Axis and Allies can obtain air superiority if they invest in it, the problem is that you have to stop investing in something else, that's the fun of the game (:

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 16
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 2:47:18 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		+1

Personally, my main problem is to repair air units while land units are also suffering. Since they are at the bottom of the repair queue, this is hard to do.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 17
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 4:07:16 PM   
baloo7777


Posts: 1190
Joined: 5/18/2009
From: eastern CT
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

+1

Personally, my main problem is to repair air units while land units are also suffering. Since they are at the bottom of the repair queue, this is hard to do.


Thanks ncc... I didn't know that... no wonder my nerfed air never seems to repair in 1940 as the Germans... I am trying to repair both Air and Armor at the same time using the priority button and all my PP's and the Armor is almost always repaired but most of the Air units remain woefully down in strength. My pet-peeve is the damage the Luftwaffe takes in the surprise attack on the Lowlands (British/French/ AND Dutch and Belgian air power is extremely potent). I have only played as the Allies a couple times and both opponents used very little of their Luftwaffe. Very unrealistic to me... but my Luftwaffe spends most of it's time back in Germany trying to recover.
At least now I know I must choose between Armor or Air repair.

< Message edited by baloo7777 -- 2/7/2021 4:08:48 PM >

_____________________________

JRR

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Post #: 18
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 4:26:43 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		It is in the manual. Check here:




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to baloo7777)
Post #: 19
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 5:56:14 PM   
havoc1371


Posts: 212
Joined: 12/5/2017
Status: offline 		The level of micromanagement necessary in the game is why I stopped playing it. I got board with "administrating"; I prefer to play a game focused on the conflict, not on administration and logistics. If you want to micromanage, fine, but the rest of us would prefer the ability to automate some of it. having to change settings on a half dozen units to make a coordinated attack is tedious, as is tracking oil supply. Strategic Command: War in Europe may be more simplistic, but its definitely more playable and enjoyable.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 20
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 8:13:33 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

The level of micromanagement necessary in the game is why I stopped playing it. I got board with "administrating"; I prefer to play a game focused on the conflict, not on administration and logistics. If you want to micromanage, fine, but the rest of us would prefer the ability to automate some of it. having to change settings on a half dozen units to make a coordinated attack is tedious, as is tracking oil supply. Strategic Command: War in Europe may be more simplistic, but its definitely more playable and enjoyable.


I understand what you are saying Havoc. It is difficult task for any Developer to make a game that is both historically realistic and at the same time simple. For myself I prefer the historical realism, but I understand that others prefer keeping it simple. My view is that there are a lot more of the simpler version of the game in this genre than there are the realistic.

(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 21
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/7/2021 9:30:38 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

The level of micromanagement necessary in the game is why I stopped playing it. I got board with "administrating"; I prefer to play a game focused on the conflict, not on administration and logistics. If you want to micromanage, fine, but the rest of us would prefer the ability to automate some of it. having to change settings on a half dozen units to make a coordinated attack is tedious, as is tracking oil supply. Strategic Command: War in Europe may be more simplistic, but its definitely more playable and enjoyable.


Half dozen units... this is not WITE.

I quit Strategic Command because I was not finding it realistic. Last time I have checked, there was no oil management and no manpower at all. And invading Norway by an event is not what I was looking for.

Sure a very different game.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 22
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/8/2021 5:52:19 PM   
havoc1371


Posts: 212
Joined: 12/5/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

The level of micromanagement necessary in the game is why I stopped playing it. I got board with "administrating"; I prefer to play a game focused on the conflict, not on administration and logistics. If you want to micromanage, fine, but the rest of us would prefer the ability to automate some of it. having to change settings on a half dozen units to make a coordinated attack is tedious, as is tracking oil supply. Strategic Command: War in Europe may be more simplistic, but its definitely more playable and enjoyable.


Half dozen units... this is not WITE.

I quit Strategic Command because I was not finding it realistic. Last time I have checked, there was no oil management and no manpower at all. And invading Norway by an event is not what I was looking for.

Sure a very different game.

Oil management in SC: WatW is generally applied based upon a country's control of oil resources, and affects all the countries forces equally. As opposed to playing War Plan were if you aren't vigilant, you can suddenly run out of oil and then operations for air, sea, and mech come to a sudden halt. I actually think SC's version is more realistic as fuel is distributed through a nation's armed forces equitably and one particular force can't just drain the stockpile, leaving all the others dry.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 23
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/8/2021 6:56:39 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		No offense but I think your problem is that you spent little time learning mechanics, if you review the forum you will see that you are the only one with this problem, what happened to you was a rookie mistake, it has happened to all of us.

From the questions you asked earlier it seemed to me that this could be a good game for you.

(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 24
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/8/2021 9:14:14 PM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline 		Microing does give an experienced player an advantage and it is a bit fun at points. Although I didn't think that was the vision of the designer ... More focus on the Macro strategic level!

In Strategic Command in the Day Carriers and Resources with AA would be used to blap air units. That or Insta-Tech... All the sudden you would see 4 or 5 fighters pulverized.

I am not sure what Alvaro's vision was here? There is more than one of the game that has microing to it and since it has a just a complex tech tree it's going to happen ...

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 25
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/8/2021 10:50:28 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		That is the difficult thing in this type of game, IMHO you cannot eliminate all the micromanagement, it would make the game too simple, it would be a game of only strategy, there would be no room for tactics.
I think it is currently well balanced, with little micromanagement for such a deep game.
Just my opinion.

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 26
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/9/2021 12:28:38 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

That is the difficult thing in this type of game, IMHO you cannot eliminate all the micromanagement, it would make the game too simple, it would be a game of only strategy, there would be no room for tactics.
I think it is currently well balanced, with little micromanagement for such a deep game.
Just my opinion.


+1

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 27
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/9/2021 2:21:17 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		WP2 will have a different supply truck mechanism. I will probably limit the stockpile and have it used only on HQs to affect all units within range.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 28
RE: Air Micro is an Issue - 2/9/2021 3:32:22 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

WP2 will have a different supply truck mechanism. I will probably limit the stockpile and have it used only on HQs to affect all units within range.


Did you play SSG's Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets?
https://www.matrixgames.com/game/kharkov-disaster-on-the-donets

They have an elegant solution on HQs to distinguish supply for offense from supply for defense.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 29
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