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- 7/10/2001 7:40:00 AM   
FatFred

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/9/2000
From: Pittsburg P.A.
Status: offline
You know I could have swore that I once read that German army of WWII ... sent Brand new tanks (Panthers) Into the biggest tank battle ever seen to that point(Kursk) before they were done field testing and that they broke down in large numbers , And that your army was fighting in sub zero weather with summer uniforms... Talk about not caring about your troops welfare. I can also remember reading that the first jet fighter to see combat (Me-262) was turned into a useless bomber because hilter ordered it so. But the kicker is That as a young man I was told ,That hilter was the best general The allies had ....BECAUSE HE WAS STUPID !!!!!!!!! I am very proud of my country and the things it has done and the way my Armed forces have preformed over the last few hundred years good and bad . At least we have the balls to go to hot spots around the world. right or wrong. You are entitled to your opinion of us. which leads me to beleive that I am entitled to my own opinion of you ... Your an A--

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Post #: 31
- 7/10/2001 7:43:00 AM   
Fenrir

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/16/2001
From: Göttingen, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by jjc424: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fenrir: [QB] Sorry Darroch, the "Wehrmacht" was indeed never defeated during WW1, but this is due to her nonexistence till 1935; the army of the Kaiserreich is another mattter. ;) I am sorry but where i come from surrender means defeat.
Hi! Just a quick clarification, before this starts to turn ugly: Yes, the Kaiserreich and it's army were defeated. (I never meant to deny this.) "Wehrmacht", however, is a term which designates the armed forces of the Third Reich from 1935 onwards. So the "Wehrmacht" could not be defeated during WW1, as it didn't exist then. Folkert

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Post #: 32
- 7/10/2001 7:47:00 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
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"1. Battle of Tebourba 01.12-03.12.1942 3 Tiger E of the 1./501 and less than 20 Pzkfw III of the 10.PD destroyed 134 tanks of the Crusader- and General Lee-types." You sure you are speaking of americans here?? crusaders? jan 1942?? sounds like brits to me :D

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Post #: 33
- 7/10/2001 7:51:00 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline
Tigers Jan 42 ?????? what OOB you got ??? come on guys Help this little girl get a game with the fearless Panzer leader with the funny french name

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 34
- 7/10/2001 7:54:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
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In the For what its worth department I checked the SP:WaW penetration vs range with the values in Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingston's new book for 75L48: ______100___500__1000__1500__2000__2500 SPWaW...134...125...113...101...88...76 B&L.....135...123...109....97...86...76 [ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

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Post #: 35
- 7/10/2001 7:54:00 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline
Boy, you would never last at point in my platoon near Khe Sahn in 1968. I'm sure you would have been the type that we would ship home in a bodybag. If you have never been there, your arguments about heroism has little merit. But, whatever, everyone should be able to express their opinion even people like you. That's what this is all about. Bruce Semper Fi

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Post #: 36
- 7/10/2001 7:59:00 AM   
Jaques Rico

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/9/2001
From: Dresden/Germany
Status: offline
@AmmoSgt Sorry, of course its Januar 43. I mistyped there. I will answer the other posts later, when I have a bit time at hands. Sven and that guy, who accused me of believing in the "Dolchstoßlegende", are just to funny. And Ammosgt, very good that you saw that fault. :) Greetings JR

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Post #: 37
- 7/10/2001 8:06:00 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline
JR either you got the guts for a PBEM Game or ya don't, it that simple , Me US - You Germany terms as stated .. lets see if you can at least play at being a solider?

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 38
- 7/10/2001 8:11:00 AM   
Del

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 4/22/2001
From: Central USA
Status: offline
quote:

Tigers Jan 42 ?????? what OOB you got ??? come on guys Help this little girl get a game with the fearless Panzer leader with the funny french name
Whoa there. Jaques just got his history a little confused. The battle he refers to was not in January. It was the town of Tebourba in Tunesia in the first week and a half of December 1942. The unit was the First US Armored Division under British control at the time. He must be confused about the type of tank destroyed considering this was a US division which, during the Tunisian campaign gave as good as it got.

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Post #: 39
- 7/10/2001 8:17:00 AM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Jaques Rico: @AmmoSgt Sorry, of course its Januar 43. I mistyped there. I will answer the other posts later, when I have a bit time at hands. Sven and that guy, who accused me of believing in the "Dolchstoßlegende", are just to funny. And Ammosgt, very good that you saw that fault. :) Greetings JR
Hey Jack Rico more is the pity you do not post your bio in your profile. I do not attribute anything to you other than a proclivity to spread adhominum on the dead. You are beneath contempt and soon will be at the current rate beneath notice. You are a neophyte at this USA baiting. You are also ill-informed, or at least extremely selective in your research. I decided to edit my own vitriol which if you do a search you will see I am capable of. Show me what a superior man will do to win a contest of wits. I am in rapt attention awaiting more eloquence on your part. You sir are a veritable cornucopia of knowledge, wisdom, and clarity.(we peons can only bask in your wit, verbosity, and charm) Show your mighty Euro super powers. Accept Ammo's challenge. I am sure you'll win!(ask around she is a pushover) You were spanked by Paul Vebber by the way. Is making unfounded claims of errors part of the strategy you excel at? Oh hey guess what the Pen of the GAU8 is wrong also, but I guess you knew that right guy?(it isn't in the game lad but don't let that stop you) enlighten us, sven

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Post #: 40
- 7/10/2001 9:13:00 AM   
parusski


Posts: 4804
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
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Uh Jaques, Am I wrong or did Germany lose two wars this century. Gosh maybe the history books in the U.S. are wrong and full of lies. Were most of the major cities in your countries in heaps of rubble at the end of WWII?? Did the Americans invade France against GERMAN forces and gain a foothold?? Did the U.S. army break through German lines in operation Cobra?? Did Hitler's brilliant move to attack in the Ardennes forrest against Americans succed?? Did Patton and the third army haul ass for a few hundred miles in 3 days and help trap the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge?? Whew, outta breath. That's just a little tiny bitty small number of questions for you to ponder. I could ask a lot more about WWII and hell, even WWI. Bite me. :o :o

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Post #: 41
- 7/10/2001 9:14:00 AM   
darroch

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: US
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fenrir, Thanks for the clarification of terminology: no wehrmacht until '35...got it. Let me try again: The myth goes: The German Army was never defeated in WW1 but the war was lost at the home front due to efforts by defeatists and bolsheviks Ludendorff even helped establish and perpetuate this myth to save face since he presided over the unravelling of the Kaiser's Army from late 1916 onwards... not the Wehrmacht, I stand corrected on that point. Any number of history books have described how many German vets rejected the notion that they were whupped in the field and preferred to believe instead that the Reds and defeatists did it... I can't say I blame them - how would you feel after slaughtering an entire generation and then losing? You'd want to believe it was someone else's fault... So, Hitler exploits these feelings into a political platform of hate and national rebuilding... Ludendorff endorses him - one vet to another, eh? Once Hitler gets the economy back on its feet the Volk are ready to turn a blind eye to most anything he does... Things keep going great!! The Rhineland is bloodless and a true humiliation for the Brits and Frogs...the Czech thing was brilliance...Poland was a walkover, only 30,000 dead - shoot, that was a light day at Verdun, this is nothing, man. Then the capper: France in six weeks, wahoo!! Aint' war grand! We so bad, we gonna get them Bolsheviks too - and some Lebensraum while we're at it.... And that was great for the first six weeks too - but then something went wrong... The Russians didn't give up..... By now, it's way too late to think maybe Hitler wasn't such a good thing after all... 4 years later, the country is in ruins and nearly 6 million Germans are dead.... and there's still this revisionism going on to try and somehow salvage something out of it all... Anyone who has researched the subject understands that the better German units maintained a consistent combat superiority over ALL Allied combat units - for example, per Dupuy, 26% for the Brits/US vs German even as late as '45... So, per a US officer-historian, it took 126 GIs to equal 100 Germans in terms of combat effectiveness... training, infantry weaponry, non-comms, and officer cadre all contribute to this performance Further review also shows that inferior German units and misused Germand troops (like the Luftwaffe Infantry Divisions) were decidedly inferior to the better Allied formations...so no magical Germans always beat Allies formula exists... So what...who in their right mind would accept anything near even odds unless they absolutely have to anyway? Not the Russians, Brits, or US obviously.. The German Army won lots of battles in both World Wars and the German Army was also unable to successfully defend the Vaterland in both cases... So, what was your point JR? Having the best soldiers means the enemy body count will be high but that alone doesn't guarantee cities aren't destroyed and the nation lies prostrate under occupying armies... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Man, I gotta swear off these flamebait posts - it's cutting into my playig time..

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Post #: 42
- 7/10/2001 10:38:00 AM   
A_B

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 4/11/2001
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline
Silly me. As a relative newcomer, i put up a post about spotting in bad weather and at night, and how the game preferences could be tweaked to make it more realistic, especially since infantry use bad weather to their advantage, and 6.0 offers better inf. simulation. If this has been discussed before, i missed it. As a former 11B in the 82nd Abn., I know that weather and darkness will vastly affect inf. combat. Only problem is, almost no one wants to discuss the topic or enlighten me. A few did, including some of the Matrix folks (but hey, they're great guys, even though Mike W. response was a little snooty). Instead, some bozo starts a thread like this one, and people respond in droves. Human nature i guess. From now on, I'll start any new thread, in which i have a serious question or discussion topic with the following; The US Army sucks, always has, always will. Germans walked all over them any time they wanted to. Tigers are way better than Sherman’s, mano-y-mano. The loss at Stalingrad and Kursk was a fluke. I trained with US soldiers in Germany once, and they were all transvestites. The U.S. was once mean to Indians, and even now doesn't let them to open up Casino’s on their reservations. The only reason I'd ever consider sleepy with an American woman is because I'm too lazy to masturbate. The only life form that could possibly be considered lower than an American is a Californian. Oh, and by the way, what do you think of the way SPWAW handles spotting in poor weather and darkness?

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Unconventional war requires unconventional thought

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Post #: 43
- 7/10/2001 10:44:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline
Hey Jaques! Nice to have you here. Your views are interesting. All I can say is that the Allies won World War II. Can you believe that? I wonder how they did it. Any thoughts on that subject? Wild Bill

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Wild Bill Wilder
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Post #: 44
- 7/10/2001 10:46:00 AM   
El Vito

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 3/25/2001
From: Ohio
Status: offline
All this talk makes me think we should kick Germanys ass one more time for fun. Practice war exercises and real war are 2 separate things especially if an Army has been at it for a couple years. It don't matter how you kill the other guy, just as long as he's dead. Bomber death and starvation are as final as an APCR round in the side hull. Maybe the German tanks were better but we deprived them of oil. Big pieces of landscape if they don't move. Or we hit em with airstrikes. The Russian Army by 44-45 was a well oiled war machine with large numbers of veteran troops, I'm not so sure Patton's idea of goin' at it with the Russians would work out very well. Not without the A-bomb anyway. :p

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Post #: 45
- 7/10/2001 10:47:00 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
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Uh Jacques, try brushing up on your armor facts, bud. The Pz IVJ was NOT the only tank with skirts!!!! I got quite a few books on armor, especially German, and there are a hell of a lot of pictures and facts in them of tanks and StuG with skirts!!!

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Post #: 46
- 7/10/2001 10:56:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline
Holy moly. Gotta love it when someone unknowingly stirs stuff up like this. That post of your Jacques is awfully laden with what appear to be intentional efforts to provoke others. In my mind that means it is very unlikely that you meant to continue any kind of intelligent discussion about your initial reasonable (yet uninformed) points. Was that your intent? I am proud to be active on a forum that has enough integrity to mostly ignore your 'little kid' comments and try to answer your real questions. The WW2 German superiority hype is powerful. I'm not saying that the Wehrmacht didn't kick ass, but they're real superiority is exaggerated. It's a typical newbie discussion topic. No shame in that tho... At least you seem to be reasonably level headed in the way you are responding to others. A_B: LOL. Aint it the truth. I think that most people assume that someone else will help you out. As a relative newcomer you gotta realize that the people here are a little on the fanatical side as far as SPWAW is concerned... (I am certainly one) and the people who made this game made it at great cost to themselves and at no cost to us. As far as poor weather spotting, I think that it is mostly handled by a reduction in visibility (maybe within that visibility range it's more difficult to spot too). It's probably not the best way, but it's something.

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Post #: 47
- 7/10/2001 11:11:00 AM   
A_B

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 4/11/2001
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline
Jaques Rico, if you get another 50 replies to this post in the next 12 hours, you'll set a new board record. So get some more responses up here, the less factual the better. Maybe mess up a few more dates, that was great. Here are a few more suggestions; Say something bad about US Marines - they are kind of nutty anyway, and will be compeled to reply even with full knowledge that you are merely baiting them. Say something negative about american gun ownership. Talk specifics, even if they aren't accurate; few guns in Europe = superior culture or some such thing. Gun owners and marines share some of the same quirks - they will post responses. Ask Matrix to add some minor things to the game, which will take hundreds of hours to code. You'll get three or four responses out of that. Ask for major OOB revisions - the Germans should take over another countries slot. It's been over done already, but it'll still work. These are just a few. I don't want to do all of your work for you. If you're going to break records, you got to learn to put the effort in.

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Unconventional war requires unconventional thought

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Post #: 48
- 7/10/2001 12:44:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline
A_B I loved the post about the weather .. that was great

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 49
- 7/10/2001 3:37:00 PM   
Gordon_freeman

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/14/2001
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
Dear all, it is very funny to see that that German "simple minded" man (ok, ok, I am German as well) could get such an eruption of feelings in all of us with a simple statement. I think that with what he said he was'nt far from being wrong, appart that he seems to forget that a: Germany lost the war and b: Germans are not better then anybody else! Yes, we kicked butts on several occasions like Dieppe, Kasserine Pass, but never forgeot what the Germans were fighting for: Mass deportation of differnt thinking people, jews, gays, gypsies, disabled, with a simple word, different behaving people. Is that a thing to be proud off? I don't think so and do not forget that the Wehrmacht was also responsable for the mass execution of jews as the SS (just in case my German fellowman might think so). What is left is that I am happy that I can say openly (not only in this forum, but where ever I go) what I think. I would hate the situation of being a German Leutnant at the Japanese / German border somewhere in the endless desert in the former Soviet Union on watchduty (appart from that that was simply impossible). So, deepest respect for you, Paul, cause you stay on the argumenting line and never get personal, respect again! What about this game being not "perfect"? Now, two things: 1. This is a game, how should it reflect every single aspect of the real world like the German officers had a far greater expirience in coordinating thier troops then anybody else (not possible in this game) or production shortruns in fuel (the mightiest tank is useless without fuel). 2. Can anybody please clearify me on what "Game" means? As far as I understood we "play" a "game" to enjoy, not to recreate the real world, but maybe I am wrong for over 30 years.... Another thing about GI's in Germany: Yes, they are generally seen in "Army eye's" as being week, but so far they were the ones who helped out everywhere else while we stay within our borders and are not able to give enough support to the European Macedonian commitment cause our army is simple as bad (maybe even worse) then the USSR army was in the time of reunification of Germany in 1989-1992. And do not come with an argument, dear German fellowman, that our politicans are responsable for this monetare system we have today: I remeber during early 80's that half of the German army would refuse to fight (with other words, desert) if the Warswa Pact Units would attack us cause they thought: The fool who runs away, lives to see another day! So, GI's might not be the number one fighting individual, but so far I am pleased that I did'nt need to see that any other nation needs to prove it! My final words go out to all the individuals who serverd in what ever military commitment: I never regard a military man as something to be "proud" of cause they serve a thing which allways could include killing a human being, but I deeply respect their motivs, wether I agree or not! And respect is something I miss in my fellow German's opinons.

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Post #: 50
- 7/10/2001 4:43:00 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
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First, I have seen some low blows when it comes to US-bashing, but this one is really unfair. There were cowards and heroes on both sides. Let me give you some counterexamples. In March 1945 two Jagdtigers (yes, you heard right…Jagdtigers) supported by a company of infantry moved into position to ambush an American advance column. It was in the early morning hours, no snow, but the weather was very cold and brisk. The two Tigers took positions along a crestline, and waited for the advancing Americans while the infantry set up their positions in the vicinity of the two tanks. About 30 minutes later the Americans showed up. The two Tigers opened up, and the battle started. The Americans had no chance whatsoever to do any damage to the two tigers with their tanks (M4a3's if I remember correctly), so they called in arty and an airstrike. The tigers took several hits from rockets, but were not KO:ed. In the meantime, American infantry were working their way towards the Tigers, so the Tigers decided to pull out. When they returned to the command post they found the German infantry company there. So what had happened? When the two tigers opened up with their massive guns (128's) in that brisk cold morning the cannons created a big cloud of fumes, or smoke (eh, perhaps that is not the right word, but you know what I mean, right…when you fire a gun, it smokes). So anyway, the German infantry heard the thunderous detonations (when the guns went off) and saw the smoke from the tanks and figured that the Tigers had been knocked out and promptly retreated. Now what does that tell us about courageous German soldiers? Or this: JOHNSON, OSCAR G. Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company B, 363d Infantry, 91st Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Scarperia, Italy, 1618 September 1944. Entered service at: Foster City, Mich. Birth: Foster City, Mich. G.O. No.: 58, 19 July 1945. Citation: (then Pfc.) He practically single-handed protected the left flank of his company's position in the offensive to break the German's gothic line. Company B was the extreme left assault unit of the corps. The advance was stopped by heavy fire from Monticelli Ridge, and the company took cover behind an embankment. Sgt. Johnson, a mortar gunner, having expended his ammunition, assumed the duties of a rifleman. As leader of a squad of 7 men he was ordered to establish a combat post 50 yards to the left of the company to cover its exposed flank. Repeated enemy counterattacks, supported by artillery, mortar, and machinegun fire from the high ground to his front, had by the afternoon of 16 September killed or wounded all his men. Collecting weapons and ammunition from his fallen comrades, in the face of hostile fire, he held his exposed position and inflicted heavy casualties upon the enemy, who several times came close enough to throw hand grenades. On the night of 1617 September, the enemy launched his heaviest attack on Company B, putting his greatest pressure against the lone defender of the left flank. In spite of mortar fire which crashed about him and machinegun bullets which whipped the crest of his shallow trench, Sgt. Johnson stood erect and repulsed the attack with grenades and small arms fire. He remained awake and on the alert throughout the night, frustrating all attempts at infiltration. On 17 September, 25 German soldiers surrendered to him. Two men, sent to reinforce him that afternoon, were caught in a devastating mortar and artillery barrage. With no thought of his own safety, Sgt. Johnson rushed to the shell hole where they lay half buried and seriously wounded, covered their position by his fire, and assisted a Medical Corpsman in rendering aid. That night he secured their removal to the rear and remained on watch until his company was relieved. Five companies of a German paratroop regiment had been repeatedly committed to the attack on Company B without success. Twenty dead Germans were found in front of his position. By his heroic stand and utter disregard for personal safety, Sgt. Johnson was in a large measure responsible for defeating the enemy's attempts to turn the exposed left flank. I suggest you take a look at this page and learn something: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm Second, someone wrote about the dolchstoss theory from wwi. There might be more truth to it than you think. Basically in 1918 the German army was in really bad shape. Germany was under a very tight naval blockade, and the general food situation was bad all over Germany. The war so far had been a very bloody and pointless one, with hundreds of thousands of men slaughtered in the trenches for no gain whatsoever. Every attack followed the same pattern, 3-5 days of artillery bombardment, followed by a mad rush across no-mans land. And they all ended in the same results. The defenders sat in their shelters during the 3-5 days of arty bombardment, and when the shelling stopped the defenders emerged with their machineguns and slaughtered all the running men trying to cross no-mans land. Not even the tanks back then were of any use. Too slow, too heavy, no doctrine. All they did was drive around in no-mans land until they bogged down or were knocked out. Some penetrated the lines, but without infantry support they could do little but return to their own lines. Then the Germans came up with a new tactic. The stosstruppen tactics. In short this new tactic put focus on the squad as the main fighting unit, instead of the company as it had been before. The men were equipped with satchel charges, hand grenades, and automatic or semiautomatic weapons. These squads were designed to be highly maneuverable and flexible. The artillery doctrine was changed too. Instead of massive 5 day bombardments before the attack, that served little more than to alert the defenders, and make no-mans land into an impassable wilderness the artillery would be used in other ways. The arty would fire intense fire missions during 10-15 minutes max, lots of smoke would be used, the fire missions would be targeted not only at the frontlines, but also in depth, targeting the lines of communication, and other rear areas. The basic attack plan would be this: one or two days before the attack the stormtroops would infiltrate into no-mans land, and go as deep as they could. The units would even infiltrate beyond the first and second lines of defence. When the attack started, the arty shot massive smoke missions, combined with concentrated fire missions on targets all along the enemy's depth. After the artillery strikes, the stormtroops would all attack at the same time, effectively attacking the enemy's defensive lines from all sides, even from behind. While this was taking place, regular infantry units would attack in the "normal" fashion across no-mans land. When this new tactic was first used in 1918 (cant remember the exact date or location, I'll check it up if you want). The allied lines were shattered. The Germans advanced 20km's the first two days of the offensive. The offensive continued, and the allies did not have any effective countermeasure against these new tactics. The situation could be described as an infantry type blitzkrieg. Things were looking very bleak for the allies and there was a real chance for Germany to win the war at this point. The offensive was halted however, not from allied resistance, but from lack of supplies. The Germans had run out of food and ammo, and they were forced to halt the offensive after something like a week (again, I can check up on the details if you want). At the same time there was a big strike in Germany where thousands of factory workers and transport workers had laid down their work. The strike was organized by the communist movement, and it had been going on for something like a month. No production, and only very limited transports via rail. Now, the supporters of the dochstoss theory, or myth, or whatever, claim that if these workers had not been on strike 1) the German army would have had more supplies 2) if the German army had had more supplies it would have been able to continue the advance, possibly (and even probably) being able to reach a negotiated peace 3) after the offensive halted the allies were able to launch their own offensive with the new US troops brought in, this offensive ended the war. Therefore it could be argued that the last German offensive was the last chance for Germany to secure some kind of "other-than-total-surrender-peace", and this offensive failed due to lack of supplies, the lack of supplies had a lot to do with the strike in Germany, which was organized by communists. On a sidenote. One of the young lieutenants in the new stosstruppen units was Felix Steiner, and he was so impressed with this new tactic that he decided to model his units after it. After the war Steiner was appointed regimental commander of the Waffen SS regiment Deutschland. He equipped his soldiers with camouflage uniforms, focused on small units with high firepower, and trained his men to be highly flexible. Rgt Deutschland were later a part of Das Reich, the divison with the highest number of decorations in the war. So those stosstruppen tactics lived on in wwii, and they are still around today. Steve [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Panzerjaeger Hortlund ]

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 51
- 7/10/2001 5:14:00 PM   
Gordon_freeman

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/14/2001
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
Another thing about the "DOLCHSTOßLEGENDE" as we Germans call it is: A fact is that Germany did'nt have enough raw material to produce war deciding goods like tanks, food etc. So the strike was just fueling and "shortening" the situation, but it surly did'nt have any impact on the outcome (same discussion in WW2, just take a look at production output of US and then tell me seriously that Germany had a dare chance of halting the alied flood...). The strike was not, I repeat, NOT a thing based upon comunist parties! This is a myth that goes around since the end of WW1. The strike was started as the German sailors of the Kaiserliche Kriegsmarine were ordered to break teh English blockade and it was a suicidal order to not let the ships fall into enemy hands (remeber, Japan did that as well with the Yamato and others). Knowing their situation quiet clearly the sailors said "NO!" and went on strike. This branded over to others and put more and more industrial factories out (which had output problems anyhow, no men as workers, no food, low moral). Later on the comunists claimed to be responsable (easy claimning it afterwards as a victory for comunism) but it surly was'nt. That is what it is all about the German dagger toss legend.

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(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 52
- 7/10/2001 5:33:00 PM   
Nemesis

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 1/11/2001
From: Järvenpää, Finland
Status: offline
I didn't bother to read all the posts on this thread but... Jacques Rico: This thread is meant to talk about SPWAW. If you want to start a flamefest about how some country sucks, then take it elsewhere! Discussions like that are usually held in "Art of Wargaming" forum (Yes I know it's the wrong forum, but that where those discussions take place). It would be OK to talk about is the strength of US-troops in SPWAW portrayed accurately. But I think it's NOT OK to start talking about "USA sucks!" in a forum about SPWAW!

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oderint dum metuant

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 53
- 7/10/2001 5:41:00 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by George aka 2f: So the strike was just fueling and "shortening" the situation, but it surly did'nt have any impact on the outcome (same discussion in WW2, just take a look at production output of US and then tell me seriously that Germany had a dare chance of halting the alied flood...).
It sure as heck had an impact on the German offensive. Not the factory workers strike perhaps, but the train drivers, swichyard operators etc.
quote:

The strike was not, I repeat, NOT a thing based upon comunist parties! This is a myth that goes around since the end of WW1.
sources...sources... What do you base this on? Everyone seems to agree that it was the communist/socialist union who organized the strike.
quote:

The strike was started as the German sailors of the Kaiserliche Kriegsmarine were ordered to break teh English blockade and it was a suicidal order to not let the ships fall into enemy hands (remeber, Japan did that as well with the Yamato and others). Knowing their situation quiet clearly the sailors said "NO!" and went on strike.
What you are describing here is a mutiny and not a strike.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 54
- 7/10/2001 6:39:00 PM   
Gordon_freeman

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/14/2001
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
Dear Pzjg. Hortlund, mutiny or strike, the outcome was the same appart from that a whole lot of people survived the war which under "order" circumstances would'nt. You now put socialists and comunists together, hmm, maybe you seem to think that during that time they were the same, but they were'nt. There was a big difference between them, but for god's sake, let us finnish this discussion or go ahead in , maybe next saturdays' chat? My sources are a mixture of German history and political/social books. But I can be wrong... Main thing is: THe "Dolchstoßlegende" was there to threaten and make people back home believe that if they were working for the "big victory"´. I think both of us agree that the stikre shortened the war, but it would surly not have any other outcome, just another million people dead probably. Let us not drift away cause I really enjoy my two fellow Germans getting what they deserve...

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Post #: 55
- 7/10/2001 7:14:00 PM   
AmmoSgt

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline
I would like to take this opportunity to point out some simple statistics ... The Battle of the Bulge some 27 German divisions attack 3 US infantry Divisions and 1 US Armor Division ... the weather for a period prevented the the US from using significant Airpower .. Yes the US did bring in Reinforcements . The 101st was a Reinforcing Unit ...It held, despite being surounded and being attacked by about 5 German Divisions ..In the End the Allies Lost 18,000 dead and 15,000 captured or Missing ..while inflicting over 100,000 casulites ( Dead or captured ) against the Germans ... All of the reasons that are given for the German loss, supply, weather, terrain ..effected both sides Allies as well .. and while the Germans were very close to their own border with a very short distance to bring supplies across the allies were doing so over a great distance ... Out numbered surrounded .. hey both sides ..at one point or another in this battle were outnumbered and/or surrounded ..which side held?... which side out soildered the other? .. history records the Allies out fought the Axis ..Bastogne alone is a legend in itself ..The simple fact is that from Normandy to Berlin the US took 80,000 Dead or Captured while inflicting over 1,000,000 Killed or Captured on the Enemy ... they treated the captured and the Occupied in a manner that is worthy of mention ...especially when compared to How the Axis treated the captured and Occupied. And when it was all said and done , they instituted the Marshal Plan .. to me personally the conduct of soildiers individually , taken as a whole, is worthy of notice as to how they treated their Opponents, after they had captured, subdued, and Occupied them , as well as their courage and skill in combat ..I think all things considered ..The US Forces showed True Honor , both Military and Personal, reflecting High levels of Profesional Skill and Discipline ..both during Battle and afterwards and I think compared to The German Forces conduct during the war .. the Americans absolutely were the Better Army in terms of discpline and honor... and as the results, both in the Final Victory , and the losses taken achieving that Victory shows that The US Army has every reason to argue that they were in fact a Better Army than Their Opponent....

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 56
- 7/10/2001 7:40:00 PM   
SAGrognard

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/5/2001
From: South Africa
Status: offline
Rico, come to the 'Art of Wargaming' forum. I need some assistance to get the flamethrowers properly focused on me. A few quick posts on my 'Nationalism and Yanks' thread should do wonders. Oh, AmmoSgt, would you happen to own a brewery?

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All politicians are greedy, powerhungry, corrupt, and incompetent. Only the depth varies.

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 57
- 7/10/2001 7:55:00 PM   
Jeff Norton


Posts: 2054
Joined: 8/8/2000
From: MD, USA (You're not cleared for specifics...)
Status: offline
JR, Thanks for your opinions. Too bad they are slanted... Americans, by their nature, rise to the ocasion. Every time. There is a mountain of proof to support this. We did have 10-1 odds at the end, but we did win. It was not our fault we were dragged into the fight, but we did help to end it. It was not a Heroical victory. Over 40 MILLION lives were lost... And, Europe was destroyed. How long do you think Western Europe would have lasted if the GI's were not there??? Never took bagage to Hammelburg. Had just a rifle, rucksack, and the clothes/boots. Got me on why they never took their equipment. I did. A real gut-killer. And, you fight with what you have . ;). How about that obstical course near the old SS area. You know it it was a SS rest Area (if you know what I mean...) The American Army does have its faults. I know, its one of the reasons why I left. It does stand to have a MAJOR overhaul, because it is dearly needed, from the top way down to the bottom. But, I'd hate to be on the recieving end of US Military know-how. When the US devotes its focus to a situation, it brings its true weight to bear. There has been times that it seems half-hearted and it really shows. Beruit, Somllia, and Vietnam (at times) are good examples. But, look at Desert Sxxxxxx. True effort, true resolve, and true execution. So-damn was reeling from it. Took him almost 10 years to recover. What we had as an army for our independence LOST most every engagemant, but still forced England to concied. We have our faults (some are neon-bright). And we do with what we have. Best to you and yours. God bless. -Jeff

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-Jeff
Veritas Vos Liberabit
"Hate America - love their movies" -Foos Babaganoosh - Anchor - Jihad Tonite

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 58
- 7/10/2001 8:30:00 PM   
Marder_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 12/15/2000
From: Austria
Status: offline
I´m from austria (which was a part of the third reich) and my grandfathers served in the german army. Both don´t talk a lot about that. They don´t talk about heros in their platoons or their killing rate, the only thing my grand father said, that three man of 150 in his company survived the last 3 month of the war (the most were between 14 and 18). He was one of the lucky. No heros, no glory, he has seen many colleges which were transformed into mood after hitten by artillery-shells. And they don´t tell stories about american tanks which they destroyed herorically with their panzerfausts, one after the other. ("in the end we were afraid to shoot with them, because some were damaged/sabotaged and some died because of exploded panzerfaust´s when you fired it") And what is fact, the allies won the war(thank god, i´m glad about that). And the guy who give up this post is in my opinion someone who has never studied war and read his articels in right corner magazines. Sorry about writing in this way, but i wanna show you out there, that there are people in germany or austria who are not thinking in his way! I´m happy that i can play such a game at the computer and not in reality in the steppes of russia or somewhere else! Marder

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"klotzen nicht kleckern"
(H.Guderian)

(in reply to Jaques Rico)
Post #: 59
- 7/10/2001 8:39:00 PM   
Gordon_freeman

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/14/2001
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
Thanks Marder, seems that i am not the only German speaking out here who have at least a common sense...

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Post #: 60
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