RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 3:43:34 PM

redrum68

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I do agree that having all the air techs researchable by military council probably isn't ideal early game. This causes a lot of randomness in tech discovery early game where if you get unlucky and get a bunch of the air techs instead of say combat armor or side skirts, it can really slow you down. Simple solution might just be an option on your military council on whether to allow discovery of air techs or even just add a separate priority slider for air tech discovery in the military council.

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 751

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 3:44:56 PM

Leslac

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/4/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

I think the Air development system as is is fine.

Whenever you create a new cabinet position, your BPs get divided, again, evenly at first and then in proportion to any new budget settings you might make (which in itself can be a politically damaging maneuver). So, forcing you to create a cabinet minister just to research basic aircraft tech is a bit too punishing, IMO.

The system as is encourages you to create the Air ministry late game, when you are swimming in BPs, where dividing your BP allocation again actually helps deal with the efficiency drop of allocating more than 100 BPs to a single task.

This has parallels to real life. The US, for example, didn't create the United States Air Force until 1947. By this time, two world wars were fought, and aircraft development went from flimsy ultralight biplanes to early jet aircraft, 4-engine heavy prop bombers, very early helicopters, etc.

It's a good point you make there. However, as I suggested moving the advanced aircraft tech (helicopter and rocket engines + beyond) to the airforce council, this fits with what you're speaking of.

Also the WW1 European military powers made their own airforces with R&D departments around 1916. The US got access to a lot of these inventions once they joined the war, so historically it's quite normal to start a specialized R&D dept once the tech is discovered by "amateurs" like the Wright Brothers etc.

And you're ignoring the fact that you can suddenly be pushed back dozens of turns if your military R&D decides to focus on rocket engines, helicopters and such to begin with.

It's a litteral killer of early game situations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

I do agree that having all the air techs researchable by military council probably isn't ideal early game. This causes a lot of randomness in tech discovery early game where if you get unlucky and get a bunch of the air techs instead of say combat armor or side skirts, it can really slow you down. Simple solution might just be an option on your military council on whether to allow discovery of air techs or even just add a separate priority slider for air tech discovery in the military council.

This works for me. Honestly it should be an option to begin with - like have discovery focus on infantry, armor or air. And then have a lesser chance of discovering something unrelated instead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Aren't there planets where (turbo)propeller/helicopter/(jet?) engines are pretty much useless ?

My first game I ended up on a 0.2g, 20% atmospheric density planet, and so I didn't even bother researching anything else than rocket engines... was I wrong ?

One of the "help" screens, last of the long list of reports - I believe it's one of the planetary condition reports. Tell you which types of airplanes work best.

< Message edited by Leslac -- 1/27/2021 4:05:34 PM >

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 752

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 3:58:40 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
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Well yes, going in random planet, this is the only way to know. But my question was how much worse the alternatives to rocket planes would ACTUALLY be.

----

Rocket Engine is just one tech. You could say the same thing about military wasting their time on discovering Propeller instead of Basic Military techs. And Turboprop and Helicopter require Propeller.

So it looks like you have to pick between researching Propeller right away and potentially wasting your BP on discovering Turboprop/Helicopter... or waiting until you discovered those important Chemistry/Engineering Military techs to research Propeller. Is it a big issue ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/27/2021 4:01:03 PM >

(in reply to Leslac)

Post #: 753

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 4:05:28 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Aren't there planets where (turbo)propeller/helicopter/(jet?) engines are pretty much useless ?

My first game I ended up on a 0.2g, 20% atmospheric density planet, and so I didn't even bother researching anything else than rocket engines... was I wrong ?

I would say at 20% Atmospheric density (200 mBar), you should expect 20% lift.
Given a 0.20g gravity, you would need 20% Lift.
So on the planet you gave, I would expect airplanes to be about as feasible as on earth.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 754

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 4:09:42 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

I do agree that having all the air techs researchable by military council probably isn't ideal early game. This causes a lot of randomness in tech discovery early game where if you get unlucky and get a bunch of the air techs instead of say combat armor or side skirts, it can really slow you down. Simple solution might just be an option on your military council on whether to allow discovery of air techs or even just add a separate priority slider for air tech discovery in the military council.

Somebody sugested that maybe we should be able to buy such critical tech via a Event. But crafted Stratagems might also work for that idea:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4949499

(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 755

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 5:38:25 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Aren't there planets where (turbo)propeller/helicopter/(jet?) engines are pretty much useless ?

My first game I ended up on a 0.2g, 20% atmospheric density planet, and so I didn't even bother researching anything else than rocket engines... was I wrong ?

I would say at 20% Atmospheric density (200 mBar), you should expect 20% lift.
Given a 0.20g gravity, you would need 20% Lift.
So on the planet you gave, I would expect airplanes to be about as feasible as on earth.

That simple, huh ?

Though checking it, lift is indeed proportional to air density ( IIRC ~ pressure ).

The game DID recommend Rocket rather than "anything goes"...

But then I also see that lift is roughly proportional to projected wing area, and in practice, bigger wings only seemed to hinder my designs.

But this is probably because drag is proportional to squared velocity for turbulent airflow... and with the kind of engine power and top speeds that my rocket"plane" models got, I expect the airflow to be very turbulent indeed !
(The transition between laminar airflow where drag is directly proportional to velocity and turbulent airflow is characterized by the Reynolds number, which is proportional to fluid density, velocity and "lack of aerodynamism", and is inversely proportional to fluid viscosity.)

Which makes me wonder, since air density decreases (IIRC) exponentially with altitude (but gravity not significantly, unless on an asteroid ?), does the game take into account the same exponential loss of wing efficiency for lift for high altitude aircraft (EDIT : and an exponential increase in efficiency of high altitude rocket"planes") ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/27/2021 5:42:39 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 756

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 6:10:08 PM

eddieballgame

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
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Well, all of a sudden my 'win 7' laptop is giving me this info per beta 1.07.05.

Trojan:Win32/Prowloc.A!cl
Detected by Microsoft Defender Antivirus

(in reply to aperfecturkel)

Post #: 757

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 6:45:42 PM

Soar_Slitherine

Posts: 426
Joined: 6/7/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I would say at 20% Atmospheric density (200 mBar), you should expect 20% lift.
Given a 0.20g gravity, you would need 20% Lift.
So on the planet you gave, I would expect airplanes to be about as feasible as on earth.

According to this document by Vic, aircraft with non-rocket engines actually lose a lot of efficiency under very low air pressure, even if gravity is decreased by a similar ratio. It's not merely a matter of lift, most aircraft engines require air for combustion as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
Which makes me wonder, since air density decreases (IIRC) exponentially with altitude (but gravity not significantly, unless on an asteroid ?), does the game take into account the same exponential loss of wing efficiency for lift for high altitude aircraft (EDIT : and an exponential increase in efficiency of high altitude rocket"planes") ?

Aircraft in the game perform the same regardless of altitude, it only affects how effective ground-to-air fire is against them. It is a bit simplified compared to real life, but I would expect that the aircraft fly to their mission area at whatever altitude is optimal and then assume the altitude appropriate for how they are designed to accomplish the mission.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 758

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 7:52:20 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame

Well, all of a sudden my 'win 7' laptop is giving me this info per beta 1.07.05.

Trojan:Win32/Prowloc.A!cl
Detected by Microsoft Defender Antivirus

I think someone else had a similar issue.
90% it is a overly agressiv Heuristic or a similar bug. Usually there is a way to report a file as "potential false alarm", so they verify and fix that part.

Of course I have no idea how much Updates the Microsoft Defender on a Windows 7 still receives.

(in reply to eddieballgame)

Post #: 759

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 8:24:58 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I would say at 20% Atmospheric density (200 mBar), you should expect 20% lift.
Given a 0.20g gravity, you would need 20% Lift.
So on the planet you gave, I would expect airplanes to be about as feasible as on earth.

According to this document by Vic, aircraft with non-rocket engines actually lose a lot of efficiency under very low air pressure, even if gravity is decreased by a similar ratio. It's not merely a matter of lift, most aircraft engines require air for combustion as well.

Funny, I was just thinking about that : both internal and external combustion engines need oxidizer to work.
Most Earth vehicles use the 20% oxygen air content for that.
But this assumes the same air composition as on Earth - meanwhile on "my" planet, there's only 0.24 % oxygen ! (At 1/5 Earth air pressure, to boot.) (No wonder, since on Earth almost all of oxygen comes from life, while "my" planet seems almost devoid of it... except a few spiders. Actually, they probably use the 3.52% of Sulfur Dioxide as oxidizer, but I doubt that my vehicles can ! EDIT : Also some kinds of nasty micro-organisms with a Level 4 bio-hazard ?)

So, it looks like that almost NONE of my oil-using vehicles (or even buildings, like the Degraded Liquid Energy Mini-Reactor or Conventional Power Plants) should be even able to work !
(Rockets being an exception - IRL AFAIK they are so fuel-hungry (or required to operate on low-nil air densities) that they tend to carry their own oxidizer with them !)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar
Which makes me wonder, since air density decreases (IIRC) exponentially with altitude (but gravity not significantly, unless on an asteroid ?), does the game take into account the same exponential loss of wing efficiency for lift for high altitude aircraft (EDIT : and an exponential increase in efficiency of high altitude rocket"planes") ?

Aircraft in the game perform the same regardless of altitude, it only affects how effective ground-to-air fire is against them. It is a bit simplified compared to real life, but I would expect that the aircraft fly to their mission area at whatever altitude is optimal and then assume the altitude appropriate for how they are designed to accomplish the mission.

Hmm, but how would a propeller/helicopter aircraft even be able to *get* to high altitude ?
And how would this make sense for high-altitude transporters ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 1/27/2021 8:46:19 PM >

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)

Post #: 760

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/27/2021 10:25:20 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

According to this document by Vic, aircraft with non-rocket engines actually lose a lot of efficiency under very low air pressure, even if gravity is decreased by a similar ratio. It's not merely a matter of lift, most aircraft engines require air for combustion as well.

If this was really about Oxygen being used for the burning, fuel burning motors should not work on moons without atmosphere or planets without oxygen at all.
Every truckstop, buggy, truck and tank used on the Moon class tell us it is not a mater of oxygen.

I think it is a more a mater of having less air to push back, thus capping the speed way lower at the same rotation.
I think for any given specific tank, any specific engine has a specific operation duration. But if the air is denser, the speed archieved is higher. Meaning that at the same load, more distance is covered.

Still it does mean Atmosphere pressure has more of a impact then I expected. Based on those linked figures, I would say Pressure has a nearly linear impact on speed. Wich means it has a nearly linear impact on range as well.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)

Post #: 761

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/29/2021 4:27:35 PM

Vic

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Posted a big AI update with subversion .06 including AI making new Zones

Should also be faster again.

best wishes,
Vic

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(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 762

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/29/2021 4:51:13 PM

Clux

Posts: 411
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From: Mexico
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Lots of welcome changes to the AI and balances

, now we only need to know if small arms re-balance its "planned" or it requires more player input in order to be considered

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(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 763

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/29/2021 5:24:39 PM

redrum68

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Great update!

I had noticed all/most of the AI tank designs had howitzer guns (even tank destroyers) so hopefully "AI should construct tanks with HV guns as well now" makes a big difference.

(in reply to Clux)

Post #: 764

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/29/2021 7:20:07 PM

stryc

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
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AI Zones! I had a bit of a moan about that not so long ago. Good to see positive movement in this direction.

(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 765

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/29/2021 8:13:36 PM

newageofpower

Posts: 261
Joined: 12/3/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Posted a big AI update with subversion .06 including AI making new Zones

Should also be faster again.

best wishes,
Vic

Vic, I've posted about this before but incase you didn't see it PLEASE have Scrap Stratagem decrease or at least stop affecting spawn weight, because right now I'm stuffed to the gills with "Recruit Mercenary" and "Recruit Junior"

EDIT: Or at least give us a "scrap all identical cards" button?

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 1/29/2021 11:44:52 PM >

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 766

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 1/29/2021 11:29:19 PM

Nagabaron

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/16/2021
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Love the beta's, amazing to see consistent quality thanks again!

Is there an official statement on overhaul modding for the community? I've heard snippets and opinions but nothing definitive.

I'm working on an overhaul mod and am curious how much I should invest into it.

< Message edited by Nagabaron -- 1/31/2021 11:54:46 PM >

(in reply to newageofpower)

Post #: 767

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.07.07 (last update 8 feb!) - 2/8/2021 9:50:59 AM

Vic

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Little excitement for this subversion :)

Just a small update, fixing some minor glitches.

best wishes,
Vic

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(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 768

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.07.07 (last update 8 feb!) - 2/10/2021 2:19:59 AM

TimeAndTactics

Posts: 4
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Thanks Vic for all the updates!

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 769

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/19/2021 1:26:20 PM

Vic

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v1.08 posted!

Quite crunchy new features added. Morgana Class Planets... Hydra Class Planets and new Minor Regimes (Alien natives).

best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 770

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/19/2021 1:36:36 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

-Added Minor Alien Regimes functionality for more variety. Native Aliens can now evolve during the Planet Biosphere phase, they�ll impact colonization and the aftermath of the Dissolution war as well. 5 Different types are present (like Cephaloids, Reptiloids) and they can use local wildlife as �cavalry� as well. They�ll form their own Minor Regimes and a special kind of diplomacy will be allowed with the Xeno Diplomat Stratagem. They�ll also can contact you themselves, like other Minors.

That is very cool.

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(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 771

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/19/2021 2:20:01 PM

Clux

Posts: 411
Joined: 9/16/2018
From: Mexico
Status: offline

The new features seems very cool. Time to start a new game to test them

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(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 772

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/19/2021 2:55:06 PM

mahaniok

Posts: 39
Joined: 12/30/2020
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Vic, great to see new planet types!

For the future patches, it would be great to see a type (or a feature) for highly-colonized planets. I always end up spending 30-45 minutes in re-rolling planets to get at least 1B population (for ruins and archaeology); if it was a type it would have been extremely convenient!

thank you

(in reply to Clux)

Post #: 773

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/19/2021 6:26:59 PM

redrum68

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Going a bit further, it would be nice to be able to specify some sort of target preferences for different planet settings to minimize having to do so many re-rolls. Things like population, vegetation, animal life, water, mountains would be great to have preference bars to weight how much you'd like.

(in reply to mahaniok)

Post #: 774

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/20/2021 5:38:44 AM

Elver

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/25/2020
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Super nit-picky, but... could we get the planet classes re-organized? Having dead, barren planetoids and moons before some of the full-sized, lively, wet planets just lookss really weird.

< Message edited by Elver -- 2/20/2021 5:45:23 AM >

(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 775

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/22/2021 10:46:25 AM

scottrossi

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Wow, this is fantastic work Vic! Thank you so much for this. This game is really coming along. I am loving the new xeno minor regimes. So far, playing with them is great. I just did want to echo Elver's minor ask to reorder the planets just purely for prettiness. Thanks again!

(in reply to Elver)

Post #: 776

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 2/22/2021 6:12:54 PM

Tchey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Going a bit further, it would be nice to be able to specify some sort of target preferences for different planet settings to minimize having to do so many re-rolls. Things like population, vegetation, animal life, water, mountains would be great to have preference bars to weight how much you'd like.

That would be nice, more control over game generation. Asked since release, one day maybe ! I guess it�s not a small task to add GUI and player-controled sliders.

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(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 777

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 3/5/2021 3:56:38 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
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bump! 1.08.03 posted!

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Post #: 778

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 3/5/2021 4:17:43 PM

Akrakorn

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Thank you very much for hearing our feedback, Vic! These changes look really good, I can't wait to test them out.

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 779

RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 3/5/2021 4:19:19 PM

Vic

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Testing is very much appreciated. :)

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Post #: 780

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