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- 7/11/2001 7:39:00 AM

Charles2222

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Joined: 3/12/2001
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sven: Just now is the first time I've read this thread. I think in the other thread you must've mistaken me for this character as I never talked mano Sherman/Tiger battles or indeed about your wanting to dumb down 39-42 German forces.

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Post #: 91

- 7/11/2001 7:57:00 AM

Tombstone

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
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Hilarious. Tomo

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Post #: 92

- 7/11/2001 8:03:00 AM

Charles2222

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What's hilarious about it Tomo? I assume my post brings this hilarity?

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Post #: 93

- 7/11/2001 8:55:00 AM

sven

Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_22: What's hilarious about it Tomo? I assume my post brings this hilarity?

Charles I believe Tomo was saying that the 'gentleman' who started the thread is hilarious, and that you actually finding him a bit overboard is ironic. I mean no offense. regards, sven

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Post #: 94

- 7/11/2001 9:30:00 AM

pbhawkin1

Posts: 158
Joined: 4/4/2001
From: Mudgee, Australia
Status: offline

Hi all, Well from an 'allied' point of view, the Americans in WW2 who came to Australia were disparagingly referred to as: "over paid, over sexed and over here!" :D BUT without them being here Australia (And the Pacific) was almost certainly a lost cause. So much so in fact that due to their efforts Australia had a major political and socio/economic shift away from being 'just a colony' of 'mother England to aligning itself at many levels with the US. However, it still doesn't stop the Australian character (especially the diggers) from having a jibe at them (or others). regards Peter (Capt) RAAMC ;) ;)

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Post #: 95

- 7/11/2001 9:33:00 AM

Rhodan

Posts: 214
Joined: 2/24/2001
From: Netherlands
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I think anyone that is dumb enough to put an X on the spot because old men feel threatened and go to war... I feel that anyone that is willing to risk death or life long physical handicaps for such phrases as 'honor' and 'duty... I feel that anyone that is mutilated for the rest of his life and finds out that the same country that put him in harms way , suddenly has forgotten about honor and rather not be remembered what atrocities it put it's young men in , in the name of 'honor' and 'duty'.. I feel that anyone that picked up a weapon and blew the light out of the eyes of the other guy, not because he had a quarrel with that person, but because he was told to... I feel that anyone that still wakes up in the middle of the night at the age of 80-90+ because he had nightmares over a man he shot 60 years ago... I feel that anyone like that is a hero. I think that any dead son is a hero in his mother's eyes. I also think that until the time comes we pay our soldiers, regardless of nation, the highest possible wages for seriously risking their life and health, that those of us that never did pick up a weapon and had to kill someone else in the name of 'duty', ought to keep that hole in their skull shut tight. After all it's their sacrifice, regardless of nation, that enabled all these 'experts' to comment on their actions. So, may I suggest that unless you have been there and fought there, unless YOU shot down a tank or plane or blew a man's gut's out...you remain very very quiet about someone's honor and courage? Thanks, Rho

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Post #: 96

- 7/11/2001 9:39:00 AM

AJH

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/13/2000
From: boston, MA
Status: offline

Just a few quick thoughts on comparing armies... Large American armies, like most democracies, have traditionally been citizen armies with a small cadre of experienced professionals. Junior officers in conflicts such as WWII got 'on the job training', and many learned the hard way. While this somewhat lessened in the Cold War, it will happen again if another large conflict erupts. The military in Germnay and other European nations has a bit more tradition, and has generally been a more acceptable career choice (although this has varied by era-good gentlemen in 18th century Britain generally frowned on az military career-a fact that helped the birth of our nation to some extent). When our soldiers are through fighting, they go home, not back to the barracks. Germany by 1939 had a reasonably seasoned force, with reserves who had served in either the Hitler Youth (a quasi-military social org) or had served and been sent into reserve status. The officer corps had many seasoned vets from WWI, when they served as junior officers either in the field or the fine General Staff. The Amwerican officer corps was far smaller and far less experienced. It is not our tradition (again, unitl the Cold War) to have a large professional standing army. In some ways these two armies are apples and oranges...it has been acknowledged by the American military (I am thinking of Trevor Dupuy's excellent study) that the German soldier outperformed his allied counterpart, in almost every situation. If Germany had possibly had a chance to frequently get 10-1 odds in combat situations, are you saying they would have declined? Why did German soldiers consistently envy Allied artillery and air support(great accounts in 'Frontsoldaten' among other books)? Surely Germany had more concern for the life of her soldiers, unlike than the accusations German generals cosistently made about Russian tactics after the war. No veteran who it has been my honor to meet would ever bypass the chance to eliminate enemy resistance and not have sacrifice their own men, if at all possible. What you call mock heroism is common sense to many. This is true even in ancient times. Thucydides shows us that stealth and intelligence are often weapons that are just as capable as others. So is economic power, and thus were we able to gain our '10-1 odds'. When combined with advances in technology that had an industrial infrastructure to apply it, Germany realistically faced long odds, however heroic and professionally competent her armies were.

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Post #: 97

- 7/11/2001 10:44:00 AM

Greenlake

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Raleigh, NC. USA
Status: offline

Yep, Americans suck at warfare, you're right. But is that a bad thing? [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Green ]

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Post #: 98

- 7/11/2001 2:17:00 PM

Greg McCarty

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: woodbury,mn,usa
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jaques Rico: [QB]@ Belisarius First at all, my point was not, which soldiers were the best, I merely stated that Americans often overrate their own troops. It is nice to see that some of them are able to look objective at this matter. -------------------------------------------- Honestly, I don't know why so many continue to patronize this line of reasoning. The guy waltzes in here portraying himself as being concerned about some game details, and then proceeds to use the forum to drag out a bunch of annoying personal head-baggage about how we (Americans) feel about ourselves --as though he feels a pressing need to show us that self-esteem, however misguided or poorly deserved is something we cant indulge in. And the thing that really ticks me off is the the arrogant assumption on his part that people in this forum (of all places) are ignorant of a truthfull perspective on the American role in WWII. I strongly suspect there are more than a few people present here who could teach a credible course on Military history at the college level. I personally have been studying it since 1956, and there is damned little anyone can tell me and many of us about the realities of what took place on the European continent between 1900 and the present. And in particular, about what Americans may or may not have brought to that table. This notion that those of us that have taken the time to learn this game and the complex history that surrounds it would still believe in some stereotypical crap about American performance; well, its simply repugnant. Now I don't know what gum-snapping products of the failed American public school system helped JR formulate his opinion of us or how we think of ourselves, but surely it wasn't anyone from this group. JR: Go take a pill. [ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Greg McCarty ]

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Greg.

It is better to die on your feet
than to live on your knees.

--Zapata

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Post #: 99

- 7/11/2001 2:24:00 PM

NateD

Posts: 59
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Osage City, KS US
Status: offline

Poor taste in words and poor timing. Sorry for leaving that post up as long as it was. :( [ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: NateD ]

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Nate, "Sometimes descretion is the better part of valor."

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Post #: 100

- 7/11/2001 4:02:00 PM

Nemesis

Posts: 126
Joined: 1/11/2001
From: J�rvenp��, Finland
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Off-topic, but.... Is there any information regarding air-combat between Allied units and Soviet units? I mean, it did happen in the later parts of the war. I remember reading on these forums about the top Soviet ace, who was escorting damaged B-17, when he was attacked by P-51's. is the are additional info? Any books on the subject?

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oderint dum metuant

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Post #: 101

- 7/11/2001 4:30:00 PM

gators

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Joined: 5/16/2001
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Did anyone inform Jacques that his anecdote about destroyed Crusader tanks wouldn't have a lot to do with US troops. I also believe the Wittman episode he alludes to involved British troops. Just obfuscating the original issue with a fact or two. :)

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Post #: 102

- 7/11/2001 4:32:00 PM

gators

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On the subject of US accomplishments in WWI maybe a mention of Alvin York would be germane to the subject of American heroes. :)

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Post #: 103

- 7/12/2001 12:02:00 AM

Belisarius

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From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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quote:

Originally posted by freyburg: Did anyone inform Jacques that his anecdote about destroyed Crusader tanks wouldn't have a lot to do with US troops. I also believe the Wittman episode he alludes to involved British troops. Just obfuscating the original issue with a fact or two. :)

Heh, Freyburg, y'know what they say: Never let facts obscure a good story :D

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Post #: 104

- 7/12/2001 2:37:00 AM

Jaques Rico

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I doubt that anyone who read Greg McCarthys and M10Bobs posts can honestly argue my point. They are living examples of my thesis and obviously born to countercaricature themselves. There are some other very good examples, but I think its enough for now. I had fun and I hope some others had too. Maybe one last anecdote from a NATO-exercise: 60 Americans and 4 M1A1 tanks stood against a M113 and 12 german soldiers. The americans were down in a valley in cover. As the germans found the americans the commander instructed his 12 foot soldiers to go around them and take them from the rear. He used his M113 to show himselve sometimes shortly on the left side of the small mountain, sometimes on the right side, but never in the same position twice. Then he fired some shots and went back into cover. The americans werent fast enough to hit him. In the meantime the 12 soldiers came into the backs of the americans. They destroyed the tanks with attached mines and shot the american foot soldiers. It was then over in minutes. The americans looked very surprised. They used laser pointers to confirm the simulated kills. The story was told to me by my friend Korgel, who was one of the german foot soldiers. He said they really had fun in that exercise. --- Ok, enough with this thread. :) Greetings JR

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Post #: 105

- 7/12/2001 4:32:00 AM

Grimm

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From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
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But if you truely compare the aces on both sides there are some discrepancies. For example the best american fighter pilot has 48 kills, the best german 352. The 10 best german fighter pilots shot down 2588 allied machines. What do you think is the number for the 10 best american pilots? I wondered about this discrepancy for awhile and then I did some additional reading. (I suggest you consider that as well). You really need to look at number of sorties flown per pilot. German pilots frequently flew over their own territory. As a result, they were often able to return to their units in very short period of time and continue to fly. US pilots frequently flew over enemy territory. Once shot down, they often did not return to their units due to subsequent capture/death after landing. (This assumes either pilot survived being shot-down!) Also, as already stated, US pilots used a rotation system. They flew XX number of sorties (actual number varied throughout the war)and then were pulled back and sent home or used as instructors. German pilots were there for the duration. There is also some evidence that the German kill tallies might have been exaggerated. I read someplace that one German Ace on the eastern front returned from a sortie and claimed several Russian kills. Problem was, his ground crew discovered that he had not fired a shot! As a general rule, German "kills" were on the honor system. Whatever they claimed, they got credit for. US pilots only got "kills" if the enemy aircraft was shown going down on the gun camera. As a result it was much harder for US pilots to get credit for kills.

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Its what you do
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Post #: 106

- 7/12/2001 4:44:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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Quoting Jaques himself, who started this topic: "Ok, enough with this thread. :)" I would agree. And so it shall be done. Wild Bill

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