RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allied Empire (5 player game)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/24/2021 8:30:35 PM

toenailthehun

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I tested at least 1 French CBV and they behaved as they should, once produced removed from force pool and placed correctly in reinforcements.

As the units in game displayed those 3 French CBV in the same category as the missing German ones I assumed they were available to France in SO39. So I believe 5 units in total were edited into the game file.

DavidC in Adelaide is the one to be thanked

< Message edited by toenailthehun -- 2/24/2021 9:22:07 PM >

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Post #: 181

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 7:26:31 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: toenailthehun

I tested at least 1 French CBV and they behaved as they should, once produced removed from force pool and placed correctly in reinforcements.

As the units in game displayed those 3 French CBV in the same category as the missing German ones I assumed they were available to France in SO39. So I believe 5 units in total were edited into the game file.

DavidC in Adelaide is the one to be thanked

France, or Free France, has 6 CBV available and their cities are all controlled by France. I have trouble believing that they are available to France from the beginning. Especially with the FAQ answer implying that some of them, if not all, are actually only available to France after Free France is created.

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/25/2021 7:27:06 AM >

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 9:34:34 AM

toenailthehun

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Not sure if this helps but found this Original Countersheet from Mech in Flames which added the CBV units

I can see 4 in the French Pool, rule as written says they are available when city is owned by Major Power

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 183

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 12:17:30 PM

Orm

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That does indeed help. I found the remaining 2 CBV in CS30, Politics in Flames, so I looked up the rules for Polif (Millennium Annual) and there the rules say;

Free French units (2 counters)
The two Free French units are only available....

So should 4 units be French and two Free French? Anyway. The units that are considered Free French should perhaps not be in the force pool but rather remain in the future force pool? Should I wait for a new edited save before beginning with the end of turn?

Edit: Note that France also has the Senegal MIL on this countersheet and the rules states that this is just a regular unit added to the game.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/25/2021 12:21:46 PM >

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Post #: 184

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 6:13:54 PM

ssiviour

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I understand your reasoning and it would probably be correct, but as I said in your French CBV thread Steve has stated that currently he has coded it 3 and 3. I would say go forward with that for now as it is the current MWIF coding and perhaps Steve needs to have another look at it for future releases which won't effect this game.

If the 3 units, the CAV, MOT & MTN are in the force pool then to save doing another edited file just don't build them untill there is a Free France, if at all.

Either way, we need to make a call on this and move forward.

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Post #: 185

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 6:33:06 PM

Orm

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Indeed. We need to make a call and move forward.

1) If the Free French are in the force pool during conquest, or Vichying, then the units would be handled like all French units in the force pool and included in the force pool removals. Hence affecting the Free French units available for building. And worse, they might be removed and not be available for free production. Potential here for further need for editing. (Although this need might exist either way) The important thing, to me, is that we avoid future trouble as much as we can.

2) The units Steve has as French and available for France right away are the MTN, the CAV, and the MOT. If we are going with how Steve has it then these 3 units are the units that France will be putting onto the map. And they will be used.

So I put it to you. How are we to proceed? Which units will be available to France now. And which will be available once Free France exists (whenever that will be - or after conquest) Are the latest edited saved to be used?

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Post #: 186

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 8:41:29 PM

ssiviour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ssiviour

I understand your reasoning and it would probably be correct, but as I said in your French CBV thread Steve has stated that currently he has coded it 3 and 3. I would say go forward with that for now as it is the current MWIF coding and perhaps Steve needs to have another look at it for future releases which won't effect this game.

If the 3 units, the CAV, MOT & MTN are in the force pool then to save doing another edited file just don't build them untill there is a Free France, if at all.

Either way, we need to make a call on this and move forward.

I did Garble this a little bit

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Post #: 187

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 8:54:49 PM

Orm

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Well. It is almost time for me to retire for the evening. And I have high hopes of continuing our game tomorrow. So I gladly take any suggestion on how to proceed.

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/25/2021 9:12:03 PM

ssiviour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Indeed. We need to make a call and move forward.

1) If the Free French are in the force pool during conquest, or Vichying, then the units would be handled like all French units in the force pool and included in the force pool removals. Hence affecting the Free French units available for building. And worse, they might be removed and not be available for free production. Potential here for further need for editing. (Although this need might exist either way) The important thing, to me, is that we avoid future trouble as much as we can.

2) The units Steve has as French and available for France right away are the MTN, the CAV, and the MOT. If we are going with how Steve has it then these 3 units are the units that France will be putting onto the map. And they will be used.

So I put it to you. How are we to proceed? Which units will be available to France now. And which will be available once Free France exists (whenever that will be - or after conquest) Are the latest edited saved to be used?

These are the deliberations of the Axis Rebel high Council

MTN, CAV, MOT are currently coded as French and are available right away. Let the game proceed with this and we can make sure the remainder are added to the appropriate force pool at a later stage of the game. While these units may not be correct as CBV was intended, that is a coding change for future releases and games, and can be argued out elsewhere.

Since we are not sure when DavidC will be able to remove the other 3 from the French force pool we would suggest not building those 3 units at this stage and proceeding with the latest edited save.

Is this acceptable to the Allied Swedish Empires?

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Post #: 189

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:17:38 AM

Orm

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Yes. Continuing with the end of turn now.

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Post #: 190

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:18:22 AM

Orm

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Units destroyed during the first turn.

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:31:27 AM

Orm

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Allies end of turn:
Part One:

USSR place the pact marker in the offensive pool.

US place a marker in the Japanese pool.

No US entry option selected.

Preliminary planning:
CW - 21 production points - 11 BPs.
France - 9 production points - 5 BPs.
USA - 40 production points - 11 BPs.
USSR - 23 production points - 8 BPs
China - 4 production points - 3 BPs.

Stay at sea:
The following units stay at sea.

CW:

ALL CP
North Sea: 4-Box
North Atlantic: 1-Box

France:

CA in the Baltic Sea is destroyed.
All CPs except 1 CP in South China Sea
North Sea: 4-Box
CSV: 1-box
BoB: 1-box

USA:
CPs

USSR:
CPs

Return to Base:

France:
LND3 Baltic -> 56, 34
CP South China Sea -> Makassar, NEI

CW:
East Med: LND2 -> Alexandria

East Coast: -> Bermuda

Caribbean Sea -> Barbados

BoB:
TRS -> Gibraltar
BB + CA -> Suez
CA -> Plymouth

North Atlantic: -> Liverpool

CsV
CVL -> Liverpool
CA -> Suez
BB + CA -> Gibraltar

Gulf of Guinea:
CVL -> Freetown
CA -> Plymouth
CA -> Gibraltar

Red Sea
CA -> Port Said

Cape Verde Basin:
CA -> Freetown
CA -> Liverpool
CA -> Suez

USA:
Hawaiian Island TRS->San Diego
Mexican coast 2xBB->San Diego

USSR:
BB -> Rostov

Use Oil:

USSR:
HQI (Timoshenko) 0 (0,4) Oil

CW:
All units are reorganized for 3 oil (3.4).

France:
All units are reorganized for 0 oil (0.45).

USA:
All units are reorganized for 0 oil (0.45).

China:
All units are reorganized for 0 oil (0.0).

Breakdown:

France:
CAV (60,35) -> CAV Div + MOT Div

Prod plan Final:
x

Scrap: -

Production:
China (3):
MIL
CAV Div

CW (11):
Scrap Can GARR + LND3
MIL
GARR
FTR2
CVP0
2 x Pilot
CP

France (5):
MECH
+ 3 CBV (MTN + CAV + MOT)

USA (11):
CV fd(2)
2xBB fd(4)
TER (2)
PIL
CP

USSR (8):
INF
LND4
Save 1 BP

Conquest:
Germany conquers Poland, Denmark, and Netherlands.

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:52:18 AM

Orm

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Netherlands decide to fight on from the NEI.

Edit: Changed to UK to see if this fixes a suspected bug.

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/28/2021 7:51:30 AM >

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Post #: 193

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:53:10 AM

Orm

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The disorganized Dutch cruiser Sumatra is captured in port during the conquest. (1 rolled)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:54:30 AM

Orm

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The program wanted to roll for the organized CA, and SUB, in Rotterdam. This is, in my humble opinion, a bug since they were not disorganized. Hence I didn't roll for them and they escape.

Edit: Changed Amsterdam to Rotterdam.

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/27/2021 6:08:36 AM >

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Post #: 195

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 6:55:56 AM

Orm

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Germany captures the damaged cruiser Java, and has to decide its fate. (9 rolled)

Which MP takes control of the CA?

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 3:27:06 PM

Courtenay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The program wanted to roll for the organized CA, and SUB, in Amsterdam. This is, in my humble opinion, a bug since they were not disorganized. Hence I didn't roll for them and they escape.

If they were in Amsterdam and were overrun in the surprise impulse, this was not a bug.

If, as I suspect, they were in Rotterdam and were overrun in the conquest step, then it is a bug, and should be reported.

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 5:49:56 PM

brian brian

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Though the initial placement of a CBV does not count against Gearing Limits, the rules are a bit silent on whether they count _for_ gearing limits on the following turn. I could see that being argued either way. I would say they should count for such limits, as the new troops may not hinder normal army recruiting schedules, but they do have to be armed from industrial production. But that�s, like, my opinion, dudes.

Be that as it may, as we say, placing those 3 units for the French on the first turn is a bit of a help to the French, particularly when they build the MECH on the first turn. Which is a very smart build however normally it has to be balanced with its impact on infantry class gearing. Which is why I usually build it on turn 2, as infantry gearing is very important for the French. So it would be interesting to see if the program would allow building 4 infantry class units on turn 2 after placing the 3 CBVs on turn 1.

Those 3 CBV units aren�t really intended to be available to an unconquered France in 1939, in my opinion. Though I can see how a strict literal reading of the rules language could be argued that they are 1939 French units. The newer edition of the game explicitly resolves this by stamping all French CBV units with �FF� on the counters, and altering the 1939 French force pools some with MIL additions and making an INF unit a Morocco unit.

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 10:40:23 PM

ssiviour

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From R.A.C 13.7.1 Conquest, Page 111 Incomplete Conquest

Clarification: All naval units now in enemy
controlled hexes are treated as if they had been
overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be
captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

Suggests no bug?

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 10:50:07 PM

ssiviour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Germany captures the damaged cruiser Java, and has to decide its fate. (9 rolled)

Which MP takes control of the CA?

Please transfer to Japan.

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/26/2021 10:53:13 PM

toenailthehun

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Japan would like the captured Dutch Cruiser please

Ahh already answered the downside of us being in the same time zone

< Message edited by toenailthehun -- 2/26/2021 10:56:49 PM >

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 1:58:28 AM

Courtenay

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No, the Dutch ships having to roll for capture, destruction, or escape is a bug. (I assume the ships were in Rotterdam, not Amsterdam. If they were overrun in the surprise impulse in Amsterdam, they could have been destroyed or captured.) Ships in hexes that change control in the peace step are treated exactly as if they had been overrun in a non-surprise impulse. Thus organized ships are displaced, with no possibility of capture or destruction. Only disorganized ships must be rolled for.

I suspect that MWiF got confused because the impulse immediately prior to the End of Turn activities was the surprise impulse.

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 6:10:02 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

No, the Dutch ships having to roll for capture, destruction, or escape is a bug. (I assume the ships were in Rotterdam, not Amsterdam. If they were overrun in the surprise impulse in Amsterdam, they could have been destroyed or captured.) Ships in hexes that change control in the peace step are treated exactly as if they had been overrun in a non-surprise impulse. Thus organized ships are displaced, with no possibility of capture or destruction. Only disorganized ships must be rolled for.

I suspect that MWiF got confused because the impulse immediately prior to the End of Turn activities was the surprise impulse.

Yes. The ships were in Rotterdam. Thank you Courtney for your assistance. My original post is now corrected. I will post this as a bug report.

Edit: I will begin redoing the end of turn with the new save in a minute. I hope to be done in an hour or two. I will then eagerly await the Axis reaction to the initiative roll. So we can get the fun stuff going.

< Message edited by Orm -- 2/27/2021 6:13:35 AM >

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Post #: 203

RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 7:30:01 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ssiviour

For Germany please scrap these Air units

Forgot to scrap these when I redid the EoT. Since none of these types were build I think the scraping can wait until next EoT. Ok?

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 8:01:57 AM

Orm

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Allies end of turn:
Part Two:

The Dutch CA, and SUB, in Rotterdam sail to Liverpool.

Factory Destruction:
-

Reinforcements:

CW:
LND2 + LND3 -> London
NAV2 -> Cardiff
MIL -> Montreal
BB -> Plymouth
CP -> Freetown
MIL -> Batavia

France:
FTR2 -> Strasbourg

USA:
CA -> San Diego
TERR -> Manila

China (Nat):
X

China (Com):
MIL -> Lanchow

USSR:
Removes 4 aircraft in Ukraine

Voluntary Resource Lending:
CW -> France - 5 resources (1 oil)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 8:08:10 AM

Orm

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Nov/Dec '39
New Turn: Initiative

Axis rolls 6, modified to 7, and Allies roll 7. So Allies win the initiative since Allies win ties. Will Axis demand a re-roll?

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 8:29:31 AM

ssiviour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: ssiviour

For Germany please scrap these Air units

Forgot to scrap these when I redid the EoT. Since none of these types were build I think the scraping can wait until next EoT. Ok?

No Problem with this

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 8:49:59 AM

ssiviour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

No, the Dutch ships having to roll for capture, destruction, or escape is a bug. (I assume the ships were in Rotterdam, not Amsterdam. If they were overrun in the surprise impulse in Amsterdam, they could have been destroyed or captured.) Ships in hexes that change control in the peace step are treated exactly as if they had been overrun in a non-surprise impulse. Thus organized ships are displaced, with no possibility of capture or destruction. Only disorganized ships must be rolled for.

I suspect that MWiF got confused because the impulse immediately prior to the End of Turn activities was the surprise impulse.

Yes. The ships were in Rotterdam. Thank you Courtney for your assistance. My original post is now corrected. I will post this as a bug report.

Edit: I will begin redoing the end of turn with the new save in a minute. I hope to be done in an hour or two. I will then eagerly await the Axis reaction to the initiative roll. So we can get the fun stuff going.

A careful rereading of these rules must confirm that this is correct, the units are not disorganised or surprised so can escape without need of a roll.... whoops!

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 8:53:03 AM

ssiviour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Nov/Dec '39
New Turn: Initiative

Axis rolls 6, modified to 7, and Allies roll 7. So Allies win the initiative since Allies win ties. Will Axis demand a re-roll?

No Re-roll

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RE: The Australian Axis Rebels versus the Swedish Allie... - 2/27/2021 11:10:47 AM

Orm

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Nov/Dec '39
New Turn: Initiative

Allies decide to go first in the turn.

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