Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

There were good "wego" board war games in the late seventies/early eighties. Wooden Ships and Iron Men, Ironclads, and the WWI air combat game Wings along with the WWII Air Force and Dauntless.

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ORIGINAL: jmlima

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
... But, under WEGO, each fleet obeys its orders and sails right into the teeth of that death trap one after the other - an ambush turns into total annihilation.

Was sitting this one out but someone has to say it. Sorry to say, if you think that's what an WEGO game is, then you have no idea what it is. This concept of units blindly following orders just because is not what WEGO is all about, if it was then it would be dead, yet, it's not and there's a reason for it. WEGO is not for all games, nor all scales, neither it's better or worse than IGOUGO in certain situations, but there's clearly a place for it, there's a reason it's used, there is a way in which it's used and it's not units blindly moving around. To anyone reading this, please try a WEGO game, heck, go for the old W@W / V4V if you must, don't be put off by these inaccuracies and misinterpretations of what WEGO games are or how they operate.

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ORIGINAL: Mobeer

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Mobeer

The disadvantage of IGOUGO is that the light brigade is probably split into many squadrons\troops. When the first troop gets moved and destroyed the player then moves the rest of the brigade differently, whereas in WEGO all the units of the brigade move together.

More generally, WEGO means the player cannot use information gained within a turn to guide the movements of other units in the same turn. IGOUGO allows a player to move one unit through the time period of a turn, then give orders to the next unit at the start of that turn's time period with knowledge gained during the period.

The disadvantage of WEGO is that NOBODY gets to make use of info gained - even units that realistically could have done so.

So...you order your merchant fleets to sail through a supposedly quiet sector of the seas. What you didn't count on was that the enemy was poaching on that sector with his carriers! Boom! One fleet gets mauled by the carriers. Realistically, that ought to be the end of it - everybody else would turn around. But, under WEGO, each fleet obeys its orders and sails right into the teeth of that death trap one after the other - an ambush turns into total annihilation.

It really depends on the timescales. Use 1 turn = 1 day with a 60 mile hex and it is reasonable that two convoys saling in the same hex in the same turn can both be sunk by a carrier group, whereas another convoy 4 hexes away (240 miles) has a chance to escape the following day when new orders can be given. In this case WEGO fits better.
... (and this is why I think eveyone plays War in the Pacific using 1 day turns)

Change the scales to 1 month turns and big chunks of ocean and then it makes more sense that a second convoy should be able to react to the first one being sunk, hence IGOUGO is better.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Curtis I could say lets take a WW1 flight combat game. In real life everything is happening all at the same time, a plane doesn't move first so the plane following knows exactly which way he is going to turn etc. How would the plane being followed ever shake his follower off if the follower knows which way he is going to go first.

As I said I think WEGO shines at the tactical scale. Things are happening all at the same time very quickly. Unlike say the strategic scale where time scales fit OK with IGOUGO.

Also talking of naval warfare check Steam and Iron. This uses a kind of WEGO system and it works fantastically with no ramming etc. Oh that's another thing with WEGO it needs to be pretty short turn length and not run that long that it effects decision making. It needs to run at a length of time that ends up not effecting the gameplay. CM games running for 1 minute is great. Flashpoint Campaigns have a excellent system that fits into the era superbly.

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Another reason I find WEGO more of an obvious chose is that real life doesn't run IGOUGO it runs simultaneously i.e more WEGO like.

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I'm not a WEGO priest what ever that maybe I just find I've had some real nail-biting times playing games using WEGO that wouldn't have been intense etc if they had been IGOUGO. I would love there to be a tactical wargame that you can play IGOUGO or WEGO and that way I could really evaluate the mechanics.

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ORIGINAL: altipueri

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

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ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

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ORIGINAL: altipueri

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

And meanwhile Patton has already secured the objective...

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ORIGINAL: altipueri

Quiz: Is Montgomery playing: WEGO, IGOUGO, RTS, Command Ops (with the pause button disabled)

From Winston Churchill's "The Second World War". Chapter XXIV "Crossing the Rhine"

At 8 p.m. we repaired to the map wagon, and I now had an excellent opportunity of seeing Montgomery's methods of conducting a battle on this gigantic scale. For nearly two hours a succession of young officers, of about the rank of major, presented themselves. Each had come back from a different sector of the front. They were the direct personal representatives of the Commander-in-Chief, and could go anywhere and see anything and ask any questions they liked of any commander. As in turn they made their reports and were searchingly questioned by their chief the whole story of the day's battle was unfolded. This gave Monty a complete account of what had happened by highly competent men whom he knew well and whose eyes he trusted. It afforded an invaluable cross-check to the reports from all the various headquarters and from the commanders, all of which had already been sifted and weighed by General de Guingard, his Chief of Staff, and were known to Montgomery. By this process he was able to form a more vivid, direct and sometimes more accurate picture. The officers ran great risks, and of the seven or eight to whom I listened on this and succeeding nights two were killed in the next few weeks. I thought the system admirable, and indeed the only way in which a modern Commander-in-Chief could see as well as read what was going on in every part of the front. This process having finished, Montgomery gave a series of directions to de Guingand, which were turned into immediate action by the Staff machine. And so to bed.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: wodin

Curtis I could say lets take a WW1 flight combat game. In real life everything is happening all at the same time, a plane doesn't move first so the plane following knows exactly which way he is going to turn etc. How would the plane being followed ever shake his follower off if the follower knows which way he is going to go first.

As I said I think WEGO shines at the tactical scale. Things are happening all at the same time very quickly. Unlike say the strategic scale where time scales fit OK with IGOUGO.

Also talking of naval warfare check Steam and Iron. This uses a kind of WEGO system and it works fantastically with no ramming etc. Oh that's another thing with WEGO it needs to be pretty short turn length and not run that long that it effects decision making. It needs to run at a length of time that ends up not effecting the gameplay. CM games running for 1 minute is great. Flashpoint Campaigns have a excellent system that fits into the era superbly.

Given a short enough time scale, IGOYGO would work fine as well. I would say that the more tactical the scale gets the less room there is for brainlessness. Imagine a WEGO flight simulator!

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Another reason I find WEGO more of an obvious chose is that real life doesn't run IGOUGO it runs simultaneously i.e more WEGO like.

As I've said, they don't move brainlessly either. Why anyone wants their units to move around mindlessly is a mystery to me. That's the other issue I have with WEGO: It's Wargaming Light. Basically, you're handing over control of your forces to something like the PO for most of the details. (No wonder the PO works better under WEGO - not because the PO is better, but because the human has been handcuffed).

Simultaneousness is overrated as an aspect of warfare, in my opinion. Most forces are not moving constantly. There is inertia involved as the last action has to be evaluated, higher commands consulted, plans made, and orders distributed. Men have to rest, sleep, eat, etc. Plenty of slack for one side to act and the other to then react.

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I'm not a WEGO priest what ever that maybe I just find I've had some real nail-biting times playing games using WEGO that wouldn't have been intense etc if they had been IGOUGO. I would love there to be a tactical wargame that you can play IGOUGO or WEGO and that way I could really evaluate the mechanics.

That was my original point. Where are the test results that the opinion of WEGO is based upon?

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ORIGINAL: wodin

As for results...it's solely based on how I feel, just like IGOUGO is for you.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: wodin

As for results...it's solely based on how I feel, just like IGOUGO is for you.

My opinion is not based upon "feelings", but results:

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ORIGINAL: wodin

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: wodin

As for results...it's solely based on how I feel, just like IGOUGO is for you.

My opinion is not based upon "feelings", but results:

Hmmm..now as I'm useless gamer if I'd played that game it wouldn't be something to show the merits of IGOUGO:) Plus I'm sure someone could show clips of CM or Flashpoint to show "results" of WEGO. For me my mind says life doesn't happen in your turn my turn but all runs at the same time.

Still this is silly, we can go around in circles here for ever. One thing at least we have to take turns post on forums:)

WHich ever system you prefer you'll think is best, obvious really.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Life doesn't run in brainless plotted movement paths either. Which is more important, though?

Here's what I believe in: Evidence!

I think my "France 1944" test is hard to beat. Lodgement established about as historically. Beach connection at the right time. Breakout maybe a turn late. Paris captured a couple of turns late. Offensive runs out of steam right about the historical point after Market-Garden.

Plenty of evidence for IGOUGO doing a bang-up job. Where's the evidence for WEGO? How do they get off claiming to be a superior system if they can't produce superior results?

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Plenty of evidence for IGOUGO doing a bang-up job. Where's the evidence for WEGO? How do they get off claiming to be a superior system if they can't produce superior results?

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Plenty of evidence for IGOUGO doing a bang-up job. Where's the evidence for WEGO? How do they get off claiming to be a superior system if they can't produce superior results?

well, there is this game called War in the Pacific: Admiral Edition...

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ORIGINAL: wodin
Hmmm..now as I'm useless gamer if I'd played that game it wouldn't be something to show the merits of IGOUGO:) Plus I'm sure someone could show clips of CM or Flashpoint to show "results" of WEGO.

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Plenty of evidence for IGOUGO doing a bang-up job. Where's the evidence for WEGO? How do they get off claiming to be a superior system if they can't produce superior results?

well, there is this game called War in the Pacific: Admiral Edition...

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: wodin
Hmmm..now as I'm useless gamer if I'd played that game it wouldn't be something to show the merits of IGOUGO:) Plus I'm sure someone could show clips of CM or Flashpoint to show "results" of WEGO.

On YouTube there is a whole list of Flashpoint AARs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M58ncvQXEb8&list=PLCddXNp2g4cPazE4Qy9rr49TWbQDvct6n&index=2

I'm not part of it (I don't do videos), but I really, really liked this game. A perfect WEGO, IMHO, which actually used an "asymmetrical" kind of WEGO (more mobile and agile forces could get orders more often than "slow" ones, with variables ranging from doctrine to "too many orders to process" to the effects of the electronic battlefield).

Hmmm... Thanks to wayback machine, BTW, I was able to find the original review on Wargamer - the one that sold me. Why the "new and improved" version of the site doesn't keep available these reviews - exp. considering that many games are still sold - is beyond me.

http://web.archive.org/web/20141124153023/http://wargamer.com/article/3480/pc-game-review-flashpoint-campaigns-red-storm-review-and-interview

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Plenty of evidence for IGOUGO doing a bang-up job. Where's the evidence for WEGO? How do they get off claiming to be a superior system if they can't produce superior results?

well, there is this game called War in the Pacific: Admiral Edition...

Plenty of IGOUGO renderings of that campaign as well. Doesn't prove anything unless there are side-by-side comparisions.

Did you see my post 63 about my experience with Pacific War?