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unit production? - 3/4/2021 9:51:28 PM   
jnpoint


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I just ask to see if I get this right:
If you play as Soviet you can build new units, and if you play as Axis you can not? If that is true or partly true will it not make it unrealistically hard to win as Axis and easy to win as Soviet, as they can build new units when they lose some, and the Axis army has fewer and fewer units.
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RE: unit production? - 3/4/2021 10:02:36 PM   
OccatorPilot

 

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I think by and large as the Axis you are tethered to historical force generation and reinforcement/withdrawal schedule, whereas as the Soviets you have more strategic freedom.

The Theatre Box article highlights that as the axis, you do have some choice on how many divisions are active on the Eastern Front

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RE: unit production? - 3/4/2021 10:02:48 PM   
Joel Billings


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It's true, but destroyed units are returned after a delay and can be refilled with manpower and equipment per the player's orders. So the Axis unit count does not have to drop, and in fact can go up as historical reinforcements are added.

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RE: unit production? - 3/4/2021 10:45:02 PM   
Light4bettor

 

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It's safe to say this game is probably the most historically accurate/ faithful available for the eastern front operational level. Having said that, and depending on your opponent (and once you know the game system well), you likely have a better chance than the historical Axis to get a win. Not to mention, to my understanding, you don't have to necessarily defeat the Soviets to win, you just need to find a way to perform better than the Historical Axis (maybe combined to some degree with a Soviet player's under-performance historically).

On a side note, not withstanding a computer games limitations, this is a game that would allow amateur and professional historians to gain a better understanding and insights of why the Eastern front played out as it historically did, both on the micro and macro level.

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/4/2021 11:10:17 PM >

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RE: unit production? - 3/5/2021 12:03:05 AM   
keitherson


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The Soviets are in a very different situation from the Axis having lost half of their military in the first months of the conflict. That is the reason why they historically and in game created far far more fresh units from scratch than the Germans. It's necessary as a game mechanic to allow the Soviets to build and rebuild units but the same is not true for the Axis. If you've played WITE 1 you'll see how this mechanic is surprisingly well balanced.

< Message edited by keitherson -- 3/5/2021 12:05:52 AM >


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RE: unit production? - 3/5/2021 12:28:07 AM   
Light4bettor

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

The Soviets are in a very different situation from the Axis having lost half of their military in the first months of the conflict. That is the reason why they historically and in game created far far more fresh units from scratch than the Germans. It's necessary as a game mechanic to allow the Soviets to build and rebuild units but the same is not true for the Axis. If you've played WITE 1 you'll see how this mechanic is surprisingly well balanced.


To expand on Keitherson's point, you'll read from the recent historiography on Barbarossa that one of the challenges for the OstHeer in the opening of Barbarossa, operationally speaking, was to destroy Soviet units faster (and in higher numbers) than the Russians could put new bodies into uniforms and send them to stabilize the front. And, as the precious summer days go by, this dynamic becomes more and more difficult the more mentally tired, physically fatigued, and equipment/manpower depleted the Heer becomes (and of course, the logistical situation). You're an infantryman on campaign, day after day risking death, seeing buddies die, and the Russians don't seem to understand they are beat...

It's increasingly clear to OKH level observers by mid-August that this tactic of encirclement cannot in the long run keep up with the Soviet mobilization numbers (Stalin smiles "gotcha b*%tch", i.e., its going to be a losing battle), hence Hitler's emphasis to Brauchitsch and Halder on resources capture rather than on encirlcements and the recognition that this is not going to be a short war.


< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/5/2021 1:32:20 AM >

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RE: unit production? - 3/5/2021 7:43:41 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

The Soviets are in a very different situation from the Axis having lost half of their military in the first months of the conflict. That is the reason why they historically and in game created far far more fresh units from scratch than the Germans. It's necessary as a game mechanic to allow the Soviets to build and rebuild units but the same is not true for the Axis. If you've played WITE 1 you'll see how this mechanic is surprisingly well balanced.


To expand on Keitherson's point, you'll read from the recent historiography on Barbarossa that one of the challenges for the OstHeer in the opening of Barbarossa, operationally speaking, was to destroy Soviet units faster (and in higher numbers) than the Russians could put new bodies into uniforms and send them to stabilize the front. And, as the precious summer days go by, this dynamic becomes more and more difficult the more mentally tired, physically fatigued, and equipment/manpower depleted the Heer becomes (and of course, the logistical situation). You're an infantryman on campaign, day after day risking death, seeing buddies die, and the Russians don't seem to understand they are beat...

...



even better, the game reflects Halder's complaint that the Russian formations were poorly led etc but that each one had to be beaten and that cost men and time.

the new combat engine really reflects the poor performance of low morale/exp/TOE formations, you really don't need to encircle them to cripple or destroy them. But they are generated in substantial numbers.

A real challenge for the Soviet player in 1941 is not to fall into the trap of either holding everything back till its got decent experience levels or the alternative of just hurling it into the line (where you will quickly lose the men, and the very rare heavy weapons).

The German player has the same problem come 1944, making the end game far more dynamic than it tended to be in WiTE1


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RE: unit production? - 3/5/2021 8:39:34 AM   
Hanny


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T
quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

I just ask to see if I get this right:
If you play as Soviet you can build new units, and if you play as Axis you can not? If that is true or partly true will it not make it unrealistically hard to win as Axis and easy to win as Soviet, as they can build new units when they lose some, and the Axis army has fewer and fewer units.



Force structure was decided pre war from intel on the enemy capabilities, this includes gaming out the conflict by operational planners, industry building what the for the level now requires, Replacement Army training enough manpower to fill the number of Formations the planners think they need. In short, spent 10 months or so building and stockpiling what it needed to run a 3 month campaign, Germany estimated it will need to beat 330 major combat ground forces, built its own force structure to defeat it in 3 months or so. They were out by a wide margin, and built a structure designed to be supplied enough, with enough combat power defeat 330, and faced over three times that.

German replacements are limited to what the Replacement Army can supply each month, it has already mobilised for war and pulled critical workers from industry into military service and depleted trained reservists, this in game is the small number new Units relative to SU.

SU otoh has not even fully called up its reservists to fill out its at start 170 odd major combat formations, and create the third echelon ( SU was deployed in 3 echelons each one further back) they are from 60% to 80% of manpower ToE, 500k just in the process joining units in May/June, rising to around 300 formations for start of war, the SUestimate of the Heer was 15k air, 10k tanks, so SU had its mobilisation plan to put around three times the number the Germans expected to face, as they over estimated what they faced, the opposite of the Germans, both sides planned for offensive action, the conflict was harder to prosecute and supply for Germany because they planned to fight x and 3 x turned up instead, the game gives the SU player the ability to replace destroyed formations from first its trained reservists and then general population that needs to be trained, in 42 there were over a million men being trained to fight in the SU moblization schools, so it simulate the different plans on for e structures and ability to generate and sustain them over time.

It’s in fashion to say Germany was bad at logistics, think of it another way, you plan to build a house for 100k budget, in you plan you cost everything out and you get do it for 90k, so you pretty sure you going to be ok. When the bills come in during construction, you find your costs are triple what you estimated, and you can’t finish the house on time or in budget as people want give you the goods for free. Has your plan failed or the logistics of getting construction material failed?.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/5/2021 10:48:08 AM >


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RE: unit production? - 3/5/2021 11:35:18 AM   
Searry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jnpoint

unrealistically hard to win as Axis and easy to win as Soviet

Where did you get this idea from?

< Message edited by Searry -- 3/5/2021 12:58:35 PM >

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