RE: WEGO games, what happened to them?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: WEGO games, what happened to them?

Page: << < prev 3 4 5 [6] 7 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 1:19:28 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Round and round we go.

_____________________________

My website

https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 151

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 1:40:56 PM

jmlima

Posts: 782
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Round and round we go.

And suddenly back to the start without any solution. It's like the TOAW4 development thread.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 152

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 2:00:50 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

So now we know why the Axis lost. They were playing IGOUGO, but the Allies were playing WEGO. They kept waiting for their turn, but they never got it.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to jmlima)

Post #: 153

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 2:42:34 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

You didn't even read my examples about "where 'historicity' falls?" and "single events more crucial than thousands others", did you?

I read it, but it was a repeat of the same nonsense you'd already posted: "If a simulator gets different results than history, we should believe the simulator and ignore the history!" Right?

Again: Just because a drunk can drive a car into a ditch is no evidence that the car is defective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Real life . . .

I actually find it believable that you go through life as a mindless automaton.

quote:

Or France 1940. On May, 10th the Allied enacted the Dyle plan. MEANWHILE Guderian panzers were squirreling in through the Ardennes...

Trying to simulate that with a IGOUGO would simply give the game away. Either the Allies show if they are falling or not in the German trap, or the Germans show if they are attempting the historical plan or going for a variant of Schlieffen's. This is why a good "alternate activation" game like "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend" to simulate the historical scenario starts with the forces already deployed on turn two.

Or have a house rule that the northern Allied forces must advance due east into Belgium. That's how SPI's War in Europe did it. Clearly, there's no way to erase players 20:20 hindsight about that particular subject. So some sort of special rules are necessary regardless of system used.

And France 1944 was a very different subject than France 1940. My example was for the former.

quote:

Santa Cruz was as WEGO as it gets: the two air attacks literally crossed each other's path while enroute to the enemy.

Tactical naval games in general use a WEGO system. Wooden ships and Iron Men used it. Seekrieg V uses it. The operational part of Great War at Sea uses it. Action Stations uses it. Harpoon 1/2/3, Command and HPS Midway 42 use continuous time...

Absolute classics based on complex mathematical models of real-life weapons' interactions like Panthers in the Shadows and Tigers on the Prowl II used WEGO already back in 1995 to simulate WWII tactical actions.

The only tactical naval games I've ever played used real-time. I still don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions - unless you shorten the game interval so much that it practically replicates real-time. Under those conditions even IGOUGO would work.

quote:

You mentioned some tabletop PTO classics. Good games for their time, with campaigns seldom finished and now collecting dust on some shelves. Then Gary Grigsby published Pacific War (WEGO, thanks to the new possibilities offered by computers), Uncommon Valor (WEGO), War in the Pacific ("Uncommon Valor but with the whole PTO?! Where I do sign?" - WEGO); then some fans with a good idea of what they were doing produced War in the Pacific: AE - i.e. the current gold standard for anything PTO (WEGO).

I'd like to see WitP:AE match my Pearl Harbor 1941 scenario. Or my Savo Island 1942 scenario. Or my Okinawa 1945 scenario.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 154

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 3:04:53 PM

altipueri

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

I've got deja vu; again.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 155

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 3:13:24 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

I've got deja vu; again.

warspite1

Didn't you just say that?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to altipueri)

Post #: 156

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 3:27:37 PM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

You didn't even read my examples about "where 'historicity' falls?" and "single events more crucial than thousands others", did you?

I read it, but it was a repeat of the same nonsense you'd already posted: "If a simulator gets different results than history, we should believe the simulator and ignore the history!" Right?

No. That's not what I wrote at all.

quote:

Again: Just because a drunk can drive a car into a ditch is no evidence that the car is defective.

Neither a pilot driving a car once around a circuit proves that the car is safe. Your point?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Real life . . .

I actually find it believable that you go through life as a mindless automaton.

Hmmm...

(WEGO isn't "mindless automation" anyway...)

quote:

quote:

Or France 1940. On May, 10th the Allied enacted the Dyle plan. MEANWHILE Guderian panzers were squirreling in through the Ardennes...

Trying to simulate that with a IGOUGO would simply give the game away. Either the Allies show if they are falling or not in the German trap, or the Germans show if they are attempting the historical plan or going for a variant of Schlieffen's. This is why a good "alternate activation" game like "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend" to simulate the historical scenario starts with the forces already deployed on turn two.

Or have a house rule that the northern Allied forces must advance due east into Belgium. That's how SPI's War in Europe did it. Clearly, there's no way to erase players 20:20 hindsight about that particular subject. So some sort of special rules are necessary regardless of system used.

Amazing. He managed to disprove his own ideas without realising it again.

quote:

And France 1944 was a very different subject than France 1940. My example was for the former.

We already knew that IGOUGO wasn't the end answer to everything, thank you.

quote:

quote:

Santa Cruz was as WEGO as it gets: the two air attacks literally crossed each other's path while enroute to the enemy.

Tactical naval games in general use a WEGO system. Wooden ships and Iron Men used it. Seekrieg V uses it. The operational part of Great War at Sea uses it. Action Stations uses it. Harpoon 1/2/3, Command and HPS Midway 42 use continuous time...

Absolute classics based on complex mathematical models of real-life weapons' interactions like Panthers in the Shadows and Tigers on the Prowl II used WEGO already back in 1995 to simulate WWII tactical actions.

The only tactical naval games I've ever played used real-time. I still don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions - unless you shorten the game interval so much that it practically replicates real-time. Under those conditions even IGOUGO would work.

You are offering us your enlightened wisdom about... something you never tried??

quote:

quote:

You mentioned some tabletop PTO classics. Good games for their time, with campaigns seldom finished and now collecting dust on some shelves. Then Gary Grigsby published Pacific War (WEGO, thanks to the new possibilities offered by computers), Uncommon Valor (WEGO), War in the Pacific ("Uncommon Valor but with the whole PTO?! Where I do sign?" - WEGO); then some fans with a good idea of what they were doing produced War in the Pacific: AE - i.e. the current gold standard for anything PTO (WEGO).

I'd like to see WitP:AE match my Pearl Harbor 1941 scenario. Or my Savo Island 1942 scenario. Or my Okinawa 1945 scenario.

I'm starting to see a pattern emerge about what you think is best

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 157

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 6:00:33 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Funny, the person accusing people of being like priests and are fanatical in their opinions aren't the one saying one way is rubbish and the other the ultimate. Most here I think enjoy WEGO and also enjoy IGOUGO and see that each has it's place.

Plus the reason I imagine why no one is posting AAR's etc of WEGO games they've played which show off how historically accurate the mechanic can be is because it's just a pointless exercise and the effort to record and show off the data isn't worth it just to show ONE person WEGO can and does work. Just look at the countless CMx2 AAR's over at Battlefront or AAR's of Command Ops which though not WEGO as such as it's not divided into turns by default it's still the same as WEGO without the pausing every few mins or so. There are enough posts on net forums which show how well the mechanic can work if done right, just like IGOUGO can work if done right.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/11/2021 6:01:15 PM >

_____________________________

My website

https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 158

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/11/2021 10:43:56 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

If I was an Armored Recon Specialist (aka Cavalry Scout) in Western Europe and stationed where my war time initial duty position was actually near the border, say 50 meters away from the actual border, and the Soviets decided that they wanted to occupy West Germany, I would not want to wait for my turn to move while the Warsaw Pact forces stopped for tea and a smoke. I would mostly definitely want to detonate any explosives that I was supposed to detonate to make any kind of obstacle and then clearly and with due haste depart the area. I would not wait for the Soviets to state "Okay, your turn!" So WEGO works fine for real life. At least for me, anyway. Someone else will wait for their turn while the Soviets kill them.

I wonder how that works for those who don't like WEGO while they drive on the fast highways?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 159

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 5:55:27 AM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If I was an Armored Recon Specialist (aka Cavalry Scout) in Western Europe and stationed where my war time initial duty position was actually near the border, say 50 meters away from the actual border, and the Soviets decided that they wanted to occupy West Germany, I would not want to wait for my turn to move while the Warsaw Pact forces stopped for tea and a smoke. I would mostly definitely want to detonate any explosives that I was supposed to detonate to make any kind of obstacle and then clearly and with due haste depart the area. I would not wait for the Soviets to state "Okay, your turn!" So WEGO works fine for real life. At least for me, anyway. Someone else will wait for their turn while the Soviets kill them.

I wonder how that works for those who don't like WEGO while they drive on the fast highways?

So you would like to take a pause on the highway, and then decide on how to drive for two hours, and then blindly following that course, without any change regardless on how the others move? That is, of course, if you have two hour turns. Maybe a one day turn would be even better? You can drive a long way on an entire day. Although I doubt you get very far...

Or didn't I get your point right?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 160

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 7:26:14 AM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If I was an Armored Recon Specialist (aka Cavalry Scout) in Western Europe and stationed where my war time initial duty position was actually near the border, say 50 meters away from the actual border, and the Soviets decided that they wanted to occupy West Germany, I would not want to wait for my turn to move while the Warsaw Pact forces stopped for tea and a smoke. I would mostly definitely want to detonate any explosives that I was supposed to detonate to make any kind of obstacle and then clearly and with due haste depart the area. I would not wait for the Soviets to state "Okay, your turn!" So WEGO works fine for real life. At least for me, anyway. Someone else will wait for their turn while the Soviets kill them.

I wonder how that works for those who don't like WEGO while they drive on the fast highways?

So you would like to take a pause on the highway, and then decide on how to drive for two hours, and then blindly following that course, without any change regardless on how the others move? That is, of course, if you have two hour turns. Maybe a one day turn would be even better? You can drive a long way on an entire day. Although I doubt you get very far...

Or didn't I get your point right?

According to what is being simulated, WEGO may allow for the AI to take over and react for unexpected but obvious events

If your tanks, for example, meet some other tanks lying in ambush they will stop and return fire. Of course if they are moving cautiously they get a bonus in spotting and reaction time, while a reckless dash can get them plastered before they realised that they walked into a trap. The same if a semi decides to end up 90� across an interstate

Also, as in any other simulation, the "turn length" must be chosen according to what you are simulating. This is usually the time needed for a "decision cycle" (plan --> execute --> analyse the results --> go back to step one) for a given situation in a given era. This is valid both for IGOUGO and WEGO. J.D. Webster choose 12 seconds for his "Air Superiority" jet age series - and I guess one can argue for three seconds if you model driving in Rome...

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 161

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 8:53:23 AM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

Battlefront have military contract which uses a military version of Combat Missionx2 engine, which can be played WEGO. This is evidence enough that WEGO gives results good enough for the military so I presume they see it gives realistic outcomes. With John Tiller wargames the engine used by military is the air combat wargame which is a simultaneous mechanic, which is alot closer to WEGOO than IGOUGO. So to say only IGOUGO gives realistic results is really is blinkered. I can't understand why Curtis is so militant like in his view on this. Comes across that WEGO has some how insulted Curtis or some such.

_____________________________

My website

https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 162

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 9:13:02 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

I suspect that neither method can be proven to be 'right'. Warfare is neither conducted IGOUGO or WEGO. Battles are complex, confused, noisy, brutal affairs undertaken by people without the full understanding of what is going on - not just with the enemy, but often with one's own troops.

At the end of the day wargame makers try and make GAMES that are fun, playable and (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the brief) realistic. They have only certain tools at their disposal and use what they think best to achieve the results desired.

I'm sure both methods can show examples where a particular method has worked and I'm sure everyone can quote examples where the game didn't. I'm equally sure that some like one method over another from an aesthetic and/or playability point of view. And that is fine.

Frankly I couldn't give a toss what method is employed. If the game works then it works; if it doesn't then... oh well, onto the next one.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 163

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 9:27:43 AM

jmlima

Posts: 782
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
...
Plus the reason I imagine why no one is posting AAR's etc of WEGO games they've played ...

Let it never be said it is not done:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1295

BTW, you are bang on the money when you say WEGO and IGOUGO both have their places and usage and both can be enjoyed and both can provide realistic results (well as realistic as a bunch of pixels or board can be when it concerns simulating warfare).

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 164

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 11:19:20 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Battlefront have military contract which uses a military version of Combat Missionx2 engine, which can be played WEGO. This is evidence enough that WEGO gives results good enough for the military so I presume they see it gives realistic outcomes. With John Tiller wargames the engine used by military is the air combat wargame which is a simultaneous mechanic, which is alot closer to WEGOO than IGOUGO. So to say only IGOUGO gives realistic results is really is blinkered. I can't understand why Curtis is so militant like in his view on this. Comes across that WEGO has some how insulted Curtis or some such.

because Bob needs a thread where he can pronounce his views. From experience the location and topic is irrelevant.

I'm currently playing 2 games, one a classic IGO (JTS Campaigns - Normandy) vs AI and one a Flashpoint MP.

Lets take recon as an eg. In the JTS game, I grab a recon formation and move up a road, at some point I find the road is clear as far as I want so put that formation somewhere relatively safe (say a village) and move up the main force. If I get fired on I can then decide whether to commit to that battle or pick another recon unit and see if a different route allows my armour to bypass the problem and leave it to the infantry (prob at least a turn behind). if my second recon also finds the way blocked, I can decide which I am going to deal with, or give up on attacking in that direction.

Given this is the 30 day campaign, I guess I sort of somewhere between a Corps and divisional commander but I have a lot of agency over what may well be a secondary issue.

In the Flashpoint game, I have Soviet recon units out, the following on tank and MRR formations are ordered to move in 40 minutes. My hope is that NATO are hunkered down in an urban area and I can use the MRR to screen or assualt and bypass with the tanks. I have Hinds available but really want them for a different part of the map. Now if my recon find that NATO are weak, I can't hasten my follow on forces, if my recon get wiped out by unseen fire I can't easily replace them.

My opponent is annoyingly good and is hunting my HQs (I'm returning the favour but I know he is well inside my order-loop), at worst, even with the 40 mins delay, my main force is going to follow orders and set off even if NATO are well placed.

My expectation is this will work, get me around his flank and then I can hunt his HQs and artillery.

At the level of my knowledge as the commander, there is little doubt which is the more realistic set up. But the JTS series is well designed and works.

_____________________________

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 165

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 12:41:36 PM

altipueri

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

I've spent too long head in hands as the Hinds (and Tunguska) destroy my stuff and I can't stop it.
Rage quit.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 166

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 2:07:03 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

The mistake that I think is that people will move the recon somewhere else and not leaving it as a screening force for the main elements moving up. The recon elements can hide and then spot enemy formations moving up, calling in artillery and air strikes. If enemy forces are hidden and waiting for the main force, then the recon elements may be able to spot them while the main force is coming up.

As far as Hinds go, use laser guided munitions on them . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to altipueri)

Post #: 167

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 2:22:15 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I can't understand why Curtis is so militant like in his view on this.

Well, duh, because he is just as militant about every topic that he posts about. I've never seen him admit being wrong about anything, or even that other points of view have any validity at all. We seem to be in the presence of greatness.

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 168

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 2:59:53 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I can't understand why Curtis is so militant like in his view on this.

Well, duh, because he is just as militant about every topic that he posts about. I've never seen him admit being wrong about anything, or even that other points of view have any validity at all. We seem to be in the presence of greatness.

I could comment on that but I will not.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 169

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 3:13:29 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

You didn't even read my examples about "where 'historicity' falls?" and "single events more crucial than thousands others", did you?

I read it, but it was a repeat of the same nonsense you'd already posted: "If a simulator gets different results than history, we should believe the simulator and ignore the history!" Right?

No. That's not what I wrote at all.

That was pretty much the gist of it.

quote:

quote:

Again: Just because a drunk can drive a car into a ditch is no evidence that the car is defective.

Neither a pilot driving a car once around a circuit proves that the car is safe. Your point?

I've offered multiple examples. Still waiting for ONE from WEGO.

quote:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Real life . . .

I actually find it believable that you go through life as a mindless automaton.

Hmmm...

(WEGO isn't "mindless automation" anyway...)

Yes it is! There is no human mind that interferes with unit actions during the turn. A handful of rules to apply is not even as sophisticated as the PO - and we all know what an idiot that thing is.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Or France 1940. On May, 10th the Allied enacted the Dyle plan. MEANWHILE Guderian panzers were squirreling in through the Ardennes...

Trying to simulate that with a IGOUGO would simply give the game away. Either the Allies show if they are falling or not in the German trap, or the Germans show if they are attempting the historical plan or going for a variant of Schlieffen's. This is why a good "alternate activation" game like "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend" to simulate the historical scenario starts with the forces already deployed on turn two.

Or have a house rule that the northern Allied forces must advance due east into Belgium. That's how SPI's War in Europe did it. Clearly, there's no way to erase players 20:20 hindsight about that particular subject. So some sort of special rules are necessary regardless of system used.

Amazing. He managed to disprove his own ideas without realising it again.

I guess I'm just supposed to read your mind here? How can any system simulate France 1940 without some sort of special rule to handle the severe 20:20 hindsight issue with that subject?

quote:

quote:

And France 1944 was a very different subject than France 1940. My example was for the former.

We already knew that IGOUGO wasn't the end answer to everything, thank you.

Plenty of IGOUGO France 1940 games that work - provided they have something to handle the hindsight issue.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Santa Cruz was as WEGO as it gets: the two air attacks literally crossed each other's path while enroute to the enemy.

Tactical naval games in general use a WEGO system. Wooden ships and Iron Men used it. Seekrieg V uses it. The operational part of Great War at Sea uses it. Action Stations uses it. Harpoon 1/2/3, Command and HPS Midway 42 use continuous time...

Absolute classics based on complex mathematical models of real-life weapons' interactions like Panthers in the Shadows and Tigers on the Prowl II used WEGO already back in 1995 to simulate WWII tactical actions.

The only tactical naval games I've ever played used real-time. I still don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions - unless you shorten the game interval so much that it practically replicates real-time. Under those conditions even IGOUGO would work.

You are offering us your enlightened wisdom about... something you never tried??

Until someone actually provides EVIDENCE that I'm wrong!

You people live in a fantasy world. Here's how that world apparently works:

STEP ONE: Postulate a theory.
STEP TWO: It's Miller Time!!!!

Here's how it works in the real world:

STEP ONE: Postulate a theory.
STEP TWO: Experimentally test theory.
STEP THREE: Evaluate theory based upon the test results.

All I asked, originally, was "where is the evidence for WEGO's claims of superiority?"

Still waiting.

quote:

quote:

quote:

You mentioned some tabletop PTO classics. Good games for their time, with campaigns seldom finished and now collecting dust on some shelves. Then Gary Grigsby published Pacific War (WEGO, thanks to the new possibilities offered by computers), Uncommon Valor (WEGO), War in the Pacific ("Uncommon Valor but with the whole PTO?! Where I do sign?" - WEGO); then some fans with a good idea of what they were doing produced War in the Pacific: AE - i.e. the current gold standard for anything PTO (WEGO).

I'd like to see WitP:AE match my Pearl Harbor 1941 scenario. Or my Savo Island 1942 scenario. Or my Okinawa 1945 scenario.

I'm starting to see a pattern emerge about what you think is best

At least I can vouch for those scenarios - based upon my test results for them!

Again: Where is the evidence for WEGO!!!

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 170

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 3:18:12 PM

Curtis Lemay

Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I can't understand why Curtis is so militant like in his view on this.

Well, duh, because he is just as militant about every topic that he posts about. I've never seen him admit being wrong about anything, or even that other points of view have any validity at all. We seem to be in the presence of greatness.

As I've said: One ad hominem post after another.

Is there anyone here who can stick to the issue?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 171

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 5:47:55 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
As I've said: One ad hominem post after another.

Is there anyone here who can stick to the issue?

Well, since in every thread I've seen you in, you seem ready, willing, and able to engage in rather incredible contortions and hand-waving to disregard any arguments involving facts or logic, I'm not sure why you'd be surprised when people call you out on it.

But don't worry, I don't plan to ever respond to another one of your posts, there's simply no point.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 172

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 6:37:53 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

I don't know which is superior, and I don't really care, but if you have to rig a game of France 1940 so you can get the historical result, well, then it doesn't really work. And I would *never* play the Allies.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 173

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 8:36:08 PM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I don't know which is superior, and I don't really care, but if you have to rig a game of France 1940 so you can get the historical result, well, then it doesn't really work. And I would *never* play the Allies.

That's the beauty of "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend". Only the "historical scenario" forces your hand by starting on turn 2, with the Allies on the Dyle and the Germans on the Meuse. A variety of others offer from "Hmmm... Wait a moment..." (historical deployments, but with the opportunity for the Allies to change their plans on the fly on turn 1) to "Everything goes. Good luck!" (with both parts having to come up with their plans almost from scratch).

Out of curiosity, I soloed the historical scenario. The Allies can attempt a strong counterattack and I actually got a bit panicky with the Germans (it turned out that I'm not really Guderian...) but at the end the Germans won anyway. It was close, however, much closer than in the real campaign, so I guess that Bob will throw the game under the bus

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 174

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 8:44:16 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

Hmm, we might as well discuss which is superior, a female gamer, or a male gamer :)

Well, here's the thing that matters most. A woman is always right. If she's wrong, well, I refer you to how a woman is always right.

Hence, women are better gamers.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 175

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 8:50:20 PM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

I guess that the best take-away from this whole fiasco will be this one:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The only tactical naval games I've ever played used real-time. I still don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions - unless you shorten the game interval so much that it practically replicates real-time. Under those conditions even IGOUGO would work.

quote:

You are offering us your enlightened wisdom about... something you never tried??

quote:

Until someone actually provides EVIDENCE that I'm wrong!

You ask for "evidence that you are wrong" after admitting that you didn't try the alternatives - and thus you have nothing to compare such evidence with? That you don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions (even if a lot of very respected titles, mentioned by a lot of people here, do exactly that) because you somehow... were "born with the knowledge"?

That's telling!

quote:

You people live in a fantasy world.

Yup, we all.

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 3/12/2021 8:53:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)

Post #: 176

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 8:56:22 PM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
Well, here's the thing that matters most. A woman is always right. If she's wrong, well, I refer you to how a woman is always right.

Wait! What if a woman admits that she is wro...

Hmmm... On a second thought, scratch that

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 177

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 9:41:01 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I don't know which is superior, and I don't really care, but if you have to rig a game of France 1940 so you can get the historical result, well, then it doesn't really work. And I would *never* play the Allies.

That's the beauty of "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend". Only the "historical scenario" forces your hand by starting on turn 2, with the Allies on the Dyle and the Germans on the Meuse. A variety of others offer from "Hmmm... Wait a moment..." (historical deployments, but with the opportunity for the Allies to change their plans on the fly on turn 1) to "Everything goes. Good luck!" (with both parts having to come up with their plans almost from scratch).

Out of curiosity, I soloed the historical scenario. The Allies can attempt a strong counterattack and I actually got a bit panicky with the Germans (it turned out that I'm not really Guderian...) but at the end the Germans won anyway. It was close, however, much closer than in the real campaign, so I guess that Bob will throw the game under the bus

But I think Bob only wants historical scenarios, where he wins.

I've played games with people like that. I played game after game of Tsushima with one guy. Everything was fine, until my Russian fleet started winning. Then he started crying about how ahistorical that was.......

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 3/12/2021 9:50:17 PM >

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 178

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 9:44:55 PM

z1812

Posts: 1796
Joined: 9/1/2004
Status: offline

Stick to the issue, ignore his posts, and he will go away. This was a fair and interesting thread before we started responding to his need to feed.

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 179

RE: WEGO games, what happened to them? - 3/12/2021 10:04:03 PM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I've played games with people like that. I played game after game of Tsushima with one guy. Everything was fine, until my Russian fleet started winning. Then he started crying about how ahistorical that was.......

I had the same experience with a game of Kasserine. After I won as the Americans the other guy got miffed because "I didn't behave the way the American Army did!" I tried to explain him why while on the way home on my car, but he just started kicking my seat...

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 180