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Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 3:01:53 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		As I try to better understand the details of this game I wonder if I have a solid understanding of the range values assigned to the different types of artillery in ground units (not AA).
1. I know that only those artillery pieces with a range of >2 and anti-soft of >4 can take part in a bombardment attack. So no ATGs.
2. I also know that ground artillery can fire at troops that are off loading from transports during an invasion and the ships that are in TF that can be reached by onshore batteries. Here the range of the guns has a big effect depending on where the ships are.
3. I expect that artillery in a base can fire at enemy Bombardment TF that are shelling the base/port (depending on the range that the Bombardment TF has selected for its attack) in the same way coastal artillery units can. Is this correct?
4. I expect that in ground attacks the ranges of the artillery of both sides is part of the calculation to determine if counter battery fire is effective.
Are these correct?
Are there other things that the range of different types artillery impact?
WEXF

< Message edited by WEXF -- 3/14/2021 4:09:12 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 4:13:01 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WEXF

As I try to better understand the details of this game I wonder if I have a solid understanding of the range values assigned to the different types of artillery in ground units (not AA).
1. I know that only those artillery pieces with a range of >2 and anti-soft of >4 can take part in a bombardment attack. So no ATGs.
2. I also know that ground artillery can fire at troops that are off loading from transports during an invasion and the ships that are in TF that can be reached by onshore batteries. Here the range of the guns has a big effect depending on where the ships are.
3. I expect that artillery in a base can fire at enemy Bombardment TF that are shelling the base/port (depending on the range that the Bombardment TF has selected for its attack) in the same way coastal artillery units can. Is this correct?
4. I expect that in ground attacks the ranges of the artillery of both sides is part of the calculation to determine if counter battery fire is effective.
Are these correct?
Are there other things that the range of different types artillery impact?
WEXF

Range is a key variable. Accuracy is also important - Japanese guns generally have lower accuracy. Caliber (shell weight) also plays a role. The 155mm Long Tom is an excellent counterbattery weapon because it hits all three criteria, while the 105 howitzer is mediocre at best.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 4:16:36 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		You often see in game Japanese initiating Bombardment attack and getting casualties from it, because counter-fired by superior Western artillery.

One place where IJA generally has upper hand is China, since while IJA artillery is nothing to write home about, Chinese really don't have much of anything apart mortars and 75mm guns.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/14/2021 4:18:02 PM >

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RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 4:25:19 PM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
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Other things…..anti-soft rating.

Alfred post #17:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3702249

Whole Thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3701981


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RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 4:31:36 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		Thanks for the comment on accuracy. I don't see any numbers rating the accuracy of the different artillery pieces in the information provided by the game. Where are they listed?

Can you comment on the issues I raised in my posting. Am I correct or am I missing something?
I am especially interested in knowing whether land base artillery (not coastal artillery) can fire at a TF conducting a bombardment? In other words can a battery of 155s fire at ships doing a bombardment if the range of the bombardment TF is within the range of the 155s?
WEXF

< Message edited by WEXF -- 3/14/2021 4:40:53 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 4:45:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Read the thread that Trugrit supplies. It answers all questions definitively, or as definitively as they will be answered. If you require more, it does not exist unless you are able to contact a dev and get a response. However, understand that the entire group of people that you need to ask are under an NDA .... I have no expectation that any further information on this topic is forthcoming.

I would close by saying that the information in that link has been sufficient for me to both play with accuracy and develop my own mod which utilizes that understanding to accomplish the goals of that mod.

Good Luck and enjoy the game! I do.

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Pax

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RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 4:56:25 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		I have read the threads suggested. I have not seen an answer there or elsewhere to this kind of issue.

Can a battery of 155s in a base/port fire at ships in a Bomb. TF doing a bombardment of that base/port if the range of the bombardment TF is within the range of the 155s?

WEXF

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Post #: 7
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 5:08:32 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WEXF
Can a battery of 155s in a base/port fire at ships in a Bomb.

Do you mean bombardment mission?
If so, then the answer is of course. Amphib operations are routinely struck by arty firing upon them.

The catch of course is that howitzers have low range compared to Naval Guns. During amphib, the naval force MUST close within range, but during a bombardment mission it is quite easy for them to stay out of range of Army guns. This is the reason for CD guns which are Naval Guns mounted on shore.

So, the answer is that they can, but they will rarely be able to due to range.

This information isn't in that thread, it is in the manual though.



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Pax

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RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 5:43:05 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WEXF

I have read the threads suggested. I have not seen an answer there or elsewhere to this kind of issue.

Can a battery of 155s in a base/port fire at ships in a Bomb. TF doing a bombardment of that base/port if the range of the bombardment TF is within the range of the 155s?

WEXF

The short answer is that only CD guns and DP guns will fire at bombarding ships that are not part of an amphib landing.

I have never seen enemy field arty fire at my ships bombarding as close as 1000 yards. They are not designed to hit moving targets and spotting range at sea requires a long-base rangefinder. Most field arty uses forward observation officers or spotter aircraft for adjusting shots, not huge heavy rangefinders or wide spread triangulating positions linked by communication cables.

Craft in an amphib landing are either stopped to unload or are moving directly toward shore so the field arty can zero in much more easily than on maneuvering ships.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 9
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 5:47:30 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		I am not asking about an amphibious operation. I am asking about a Bombardment TF that is firing at a port/base. That TF can be set to fire at a variety of ranges, many of which allow for the firing of guns on the ships that are quite small compared to the large naval guns also on the ships.
If the orders for the TF are to close to a range that allows the smaller guns to fire will a battery of 155s with a max range of 16 be able to return fire or are the only guns allowed to fire at the ships in a Bombardment TF Coastal Defense guns?
Many times in a game I have seen Bombardment TF that are only DDs sneak in to shell a base or port with all of its weapons. I am looking to see if having some non-coastal artillery at the base would provide some protection?

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RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 5:50:29 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: WEXF

I have read the threads suggested. I have not seen an answer there or elsewhere to this kind of issue.

Can a battery of 155s in a base/port fire at ships in a Bomb. TF doing a bombardment of that base/port if the range of the bombardment TF is within the range of the 155s?

WEXF

The short answer is that only CD guns and DP guns will fire at bombarding ships that are not part of an amphib landing.

Thank you for this. I will take this as the rule unless someone knows different.

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Post #: 11
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 5:55:02 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Play the game and observe the combats. Send in BBs to bombard Tokyo in 1942 . . .

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 12
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 6:13:52 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		I am enjoying the game very much. My goal is to understand what can and can't be done so that I make informed decisions on how to deploy my assets. I have been playing these types of games for decades so I am not that concerned with the specifics of how die roll results are calculated. My goal is to know when a die roll will be made. The probability of a favorable result is certainly interesting but if no die roll will be made at all, the rest is moot.
WEXF


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Post #: 13
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 6:45:35 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		RJ answered your question.

BBFB gave the answer as to why. The lack of adequate fire directors is a big deal.

If you really want to know, build a sandbox and test.

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Pax

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Post #: 14
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 7:20:57 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		Good idea. I'll start building right away.
WEXF

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Post #: 15
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 8:12:37 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
I built the sandbox for you.

I have never seen a combat report that lists a land artillery unit other than a CD unit
firing at a bombardment task force.

Of course we don’t know if there is anything factored in for this but I would say the
game does not model it.

You don’t want to do that anyway. Save you artillery for what it was designed for.

As noted, combat artillery is all based on indirect fire and as such a land unit does not have
the fire control needed to fire effectively at moving naval targets (Direct fire)

In a bombardment task force set to zero range the battleships typically stay around
12,000 to 13,000 yards off the coast; around 6 to 7 nautical miles.
If you set the escorts to bombard the CA’s and DD’s typically get as
close as 4,000 yards; around 2 nautical miles.

The chances of a hit are not worth figuring in for this game.

For amphibious attacks it is a different story.
Indirect fire can hit something as large and straight as a beach for
sure, round after round, and it can wreck your day.

But…I wanted to check my memory (my memory is getting slack as I get older)
So….I ran out a bombardment. (As stated, it is not against the rules to run practice missions)

I put some 155’s on Midway and ran a Japanese Bombardment against it.
The Japanese escorts ran in to within 4,000 yards and the Marines fired back
but as you can see they did not get a single hit and the 155’s did not fire.

The picture below is a Marine 5”/51 Coastal Defense gun emplacement.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 16
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 8:20:54 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Nice sandbox and pic Trugrit!

If you are ever in the San Francisco area, cross the Golden Gate to Maren County and go west along the coast in the state park there. We went to see the lighthouse but discovered the emplacements for the CD guns that were there during the war - huge pits for guns that could swing up and fire, then drop down for reloading. Probably 14" or 16" caliber from the size of the concrete pads. Beautiful view of the whole area around the entrance to the Bay.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 17
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 8:24:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I have seen 40mm AA guns fire at a Japanese transport vessel in an invasion to the point where it was credited with sinking it. But against a bombardment mission, most of those guns would stay silent with their crews undercover staying safer than manning their weapon system.

In the actual invasion of Wake, those 5 inch guns did some serious damage to the invasion task force.

Not to mention US Marine Captain Henry Talmage "Hammerin' Hank" Elrod MOH in his F-4. For his work in the air as well on the ground as an infantry officer, his was the first aviator awarded the MOH by date of action in World War II.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 18
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 8:29:28 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 9/7/2020
Status: offline 		I really appreciate the effort TG. Thank you.
I can see that the shots fired at the TF were from the CD guns alone.
It gives me everything I was looking for in an answer.
WEXF

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Post #: 19
RE: Artillery Ranges - 3/14/2021 8:36:20 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I have seen 40mm AA guns fire at a Japanese transport vessel in an invasion to the point where it was credited with sinking it. But against a bombardment mission, most of those guns would stay silent with their crews undercover staying safer than manning their weapon system.

In the actual invasion of Wake, those 5 inch guns did some serious damage to the invasion task force.

Not to mention US Marine Captain Henry Talmage "Hammerin' Hank" Elrod MOH in his F-4. For his work in the air as well on the ground as an infantry officer, his was the first aviator awarded the MOH by date of action in World War II.

We know that Arty will fire against amphib and score hits. Happens all the time ...

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 20
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