Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: All things Football (soccer) related

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: All things Football (soccer) related Page: <<   < prev  143 144 [145] 146 147   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 8:42:48 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

well the idea that either Spurs or Arsenal deserve a place in the supposedly 12 best teams in Europe is beyond parody.

warspite1

Agreed - an absolute joke - but it's a shame that this point about Spurs not deserving a place keeps being raised. It's a shame because it detracts from the real issue. If any clubs deserve a place in a super league based on history, merit, trophies won, etc etc then Manchester United and Liverpool are the two English clubs that can say they deserve it. But its not the point. The problem is what this 'super league' means, and the total betrayal of every club in European football no matter how big or small. This is a closed shop and its totally unacceptable.



It is sad day for football. I don't see a way back from this - the die has been cast.

Best wishes,
Steve

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4321
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 9:15:58 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

...
It is sad day for football. I don't see a way back from this - the die has been cast.

Best wishes,
Steve


agree, I mean one or more of them may back down, but that they even think this is a good idea/acceptable is so telling as to their mindset.

the financial doping of PSG/ManC/Chelsea (add to according to taste and knowledge) was always going to undermine any pretence of competition and this is the natural end point of that.

I guess it explains Mourinho's awful tactics this season - clearly it doesn't matter one bit how dire Spurs are to watch if this is the end goal.

and agree with Warspite - the whole idea is risible, there is no way can anyone claim this is 'deserved' but adding the 2 north London teams makes it into a complete farce

_____________________________


(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 4322
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 11:44:52 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		and he's gone

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/19/jose-mourinho-sacked-as-tottenham-manager

maybe Christian Gross is still looking for a job ... or Sherwood, lets have another period with the Gillet tactics

_____________________________


(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 4323
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 11:46:54 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
The problem is what this 'super league' means, and the total betrayal of every club in European football no matter how big or small. This is a closed shop and its totally unacceptable.



What they are doing here ofc is making an "American style" league. None of the "founders" gets demoted etc etc.

I hope this does not happen, as one of the things about football are those magical moments when the underdogs wins through. (Denmark winning the Euro, Rosenborg winning at San Siro etc), and that we will lose out on.

Also, how "special" will Liverpool vs Man Utd be when this league is added?

I will however claim that UEFA will have to take some blame here too, I understand the club owners wanting more income, especially with the money going out. Had UEFA followed their own rules about FFP over the years, club spendings would have been lower by necessity already.

But all in all, just a sad sad day for football.

_____________________________

"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4324
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 2:57:26 PM   
Piteas


Posts: 192
Joined: 3/10/2014
From: Spain
Status: offline 		They are a bunch of rich teams breaking the rules because they´re rich and they want an absolute power, establishing a feudal system where they´re the kings.

Shameless.

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 4325
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 5:29:30 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

and he's gone

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/19/jose-mourinho-sacked-as-tottenham-manager

maybe Christian Gross is still looking for a job ... or Sherwood, lets have another period with the Gillet tactics
warspite1

Well that is curious timing....

I mean 12 cup wins out of 14 - that is a pretty good pedigree to be taking into a shot at silverware (especially as its a VERY long shot against Manchester City).

What prompted Jose's removal just six days before the Carabao Cup Final? The performance at Everton was dross - but no worse than the dross that has been served up all season.

I don't buy that it was a cynical attempt to deflect criticism about the European Super League - after all the majority of anger has been directed at the real big clubs, Liverpool, United, (and in terms of tradition, Arsenal) with lesser anger for the oil clubs of City and Chelsea (maybe because they don't need the money and their involvement is simply fear of being left out), while Spurs are largely treated as a bit of an irrelevance who's presence in this company is something of a joke.

So what happened over the weekend to make Levy act this morning? Strange.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 4326
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/19/2021 5:49:40 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piteas

They are a bunch of rich teams breaking the rules because they´re rich and they want an absolute power, establishing a feudal system where they´re the kings.

Shameless.

That's the way I see it too. A way to milk more money and nothing else. Maybe needed after the pandemic, but who doesn't?

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Piteas)
Post #: 4327
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/20/2021 4:08:59 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline 		Apart from 5 big European leagues it was already impossible to achive anything in Champions league for other European countries. I don't remember when Totenham was last champion in English league. But was still in Champions league. If they invite to CL organizations 3 to 5 teams in 5 big leagues, finance gaps between 'united Europe' gets worse. Domestic leagues for this big 5 their problem.

I believe European football should be better divided to West&East, Mediterian and Balkan Leagues.

Semi finals in European Cup in 1988:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988%E2%80%9389_European_Cup

Steaua Bucureşti vs Galatasaray

Milan vs Real Madrid.

Now it is impossible.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 4/20/2021 4:14:19 PM >

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 4328
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/20/2021 5:08:35 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gamer78

Apart from 5 big European leagues it was already impossible to achive anything in Champions league for other European countries. I don't remember when Totenham was last champion in English league. But was still in Champions league. If they invite to CL organizations 3 to 5 teams in 5 big leagues, finance gaps between 'united Europe' gets worse. Domestic leagues for this big 5 their problem.

I believe European football should be better divided to West&East, Mediterian and Balkan Leagues.

Semi finals in European Cup in 1988:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988%E2%80%9389_European_Cup

Steaua Bucureşti vs Galatasaray

Milan vs Real Madrid.

Now it is impossible.
warspite1

The last time Spurs were champions? 1961.....

That there are 'have's' and 'have nots' in football - both domestic and European - has always been true and probably always will.

It's not ideal. As a Spurs fan I wish that Man City, PSG and Chelsea couldn't have happened. But they are not the only ones. I would love to know the finances of Real Madrid and Barcelona for example.....

But the point is, while things may not be ideal, and not always fair, there is no 'closed shop'. It is this that is so repugnant about the 'European Super League'. The unbelievable sense of entitlement of these clubs is just beyond belief.

Perez says football is becoming less popular and audiences are decreasing. So, in order to save sinking football these clubs decide the best way forward is to grab the only lifeboats - and thus save themselves.....

How about? If football is less popular and income is decreasing, they simply decide to pay the players less obscene wages? There's a thought.....

Of course Real Madrid wouldn't want to do that because Chelsea, PSG and Man City would win everything.... well then now they know how the smaller clubs in Spain and Europe have felt for years in trying to compete with them.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/20/2021 5:09:53 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to gamer78)
Post #: 4329
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/20/2021 7:25:10 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		seems the whole thing is collapsing.

La Repubblica is reporting that Agnelli has resigned from Juventus, while apparently the prat in charge of Barcelona has suddenly decided it needs to be approved by their fan base.

so the super league is looking like N London vs Milan?

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4330
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/20/2021 7:44:28 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		No doubt Spurs will be the last one standing......

I think its really interesting what was said following the Premiership meeting today - and that, although the six clubs will be welcome, certain people who have attended meetings in the last few months, knowing what was being planned, will not be welcome back. Well one has to ask who attends these meetings and who they were talking about.

My money is on Mr Levy and Mr Edwards to name two.....

I'm just hoping that the only reason Spurs haven't pulled out is because they can't afford the exit fees. If they stick it out until the whole thing folds then perhaps there will be less penalty fees to pay because they can claim force majeure.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/20/2021 7:56:23 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 4331
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/20/2021 8:03:58 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Woodward has left Man Utd .. who is going to sign up their official tractor sponsorship deal with Mongolia now?

So it seems as if a load of owners are busily dumping their front persons who actually run the clubs - so yes, that puts Levy v much at risk, esp after the Mourinho disaster?

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4332
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/21/2021 8:04:58 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Arsenal and Liverpool have apologised to the fans. Would be nice if someone from Spurs would do the same.....

Instead they made this bland statement:

Chairman Daniel Levy said: “We regret the anxiety and upset caused by the ESL proposal. We felt it was important that our club participated in the development of a possible new structure that sought to better ensure financial fair play and financial sustainability whilst delivering significantly increased support for the wider football pyramid.

“We believe that we should never stand still and that the sport should constantly review competitions and governance to ensure the game we all love continues to evolve and excite fans around the world.

“We should like to thank all those supporters who presented their considered opinions.”

So once again they seem to be missing the mood here and getting their response to the initial error wrong too.... Oh lordy.

Interesting that the six Italian/Spanish clubs are yet to make any announcement. What are they waiting for?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/21/2021 8:08:02 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 4333
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/21/2021 9:02:18 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Interesting that the six Italian/Spanish clubs are yet to make any announcement. What are they waiting for?

Inter Milan just dropped out.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4334
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/21/2021 1:35:09 PM   
Piteas


Posts: 192
Joined: 3/10/2014
From: Spain
Status: offline 		Atletico Madrid dropped out, soon Barcelona... Finally, it´ll be the "Perez Alone League", I think.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 4335
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/21/2021 2:03:03 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline 		It would seem that Agnelli threw the final towel:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/21/european-super-league-vows-to-reshape-after-english-clubs-pull-out

The supporters of the various teams expressed very clearly their opinion about the matter. Guess which was the only team that got a positive vote...





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Piteas)
Post #: 4336
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/21/2021 3:44:34 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Perez.... what a plonker. Love that some clubs continue to fail to capture the mood here.... Man Utd and Spurs in particular.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Piteas)
Post #: 4337
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/22/2021 7:36:29 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

It's not ideal. As a Spurs fan I wish that Man City, PSG and Chelsea couldn't have happened. But they are not the only ones. I would love to know the finances of Real Madrid and Barcelona for example.....



Yes, did UEFA have a look their finances. Income and expenditure. System was already corrupted. Erasing points from others leagues isn't a solution. EX: PSG was a French team no big worldwide supporters before.


< Message edited by gamer78 -- 4/22/2021 7:37:41 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4338
RE: European Championships - 4/22/2021 8:40:20 PM   
Desterto

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 4/22/2021
Status: offline 		My father taught me to play and I still play with my children. Football is very cool

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 4339
RE: European Championships - 4/23/2021 12:30:03 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		My favourite quote from the ESL story is the early quote from Crawley Town FC...

"Crawley Town Football Club would like to confirm that despite the rumours, we are not one of the six clubs in mention and will not be seeking membership to any Super League. The club will make no further comment at this time."

I've said it before and I will say it again... football clubs must be self-financing and live within their means. It is really that simple. With regard to ESL, the rich clubs want it because they are desperate for money. Why are they desperate for money? Because their expenses are greater than their income. If the ESL was a successful project, quite apart from damaging the national leagues involved, it would not, ultimately, benefit the rich clubs. They would just find ways to spend more money and end up in the same position they are in now. This is not sustainable.

There is problem at the national league level with one or two, on average, big clubs dominating the national leagues (6 clubs in England, 3 in Spain, but just Bayern in Germany, Juventus in Italy, PSG in France etc.) Why are there 6 clubs in England and only 3 in Spain and 1 pretty much everywhere else? Money. The insane riches of the Premier league supports more.

There is also a problem at the continental level. The Premier League is the cash cow that dominates every other European league. If all European teams were self-financing and living within their means, the Premier league teams would dominate every European competition. The likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona can only dream of achieving that kind of spending power.

This is why Real Madrid and Barcelona are in such a huge financial holes. They are buying the best players with transfer fees and wages that they simply cannot afford.

European football is fundamentally broken. It has been broken for some years now. Covid 19 has brought the problem into sharp relief.

And what about the other European nations? Remember "the good old days" when Reims, Fiorentina, Milan, Eintracht Frankfurt, Benfica, Partizan Belgrade, Celtic, Ajax, Panathinaikos, Leeds, Saint Etienne, Borussia Munchengladbach, Brugge, Malmo, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Hamburg, Roma, Steaua Bucharest, Porto, PSV, Red Star Belgrade, and Sampdoria competed for the big prize? Quite a few of them won it as well.

Jean-Marc Bosman joined Standard Liege in 1988. Two years later when his contract expired, Standard cut his wages by 75% and would not let him leave. Correlation or causality?

European football has deep, deep problems. They cannot be fixed by papering over the cracks.

Best wishes,
Steve

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Desterto)
Post #: 4340
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 12:52:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Quick post to get the title back....why do people feel the need to change thread names? Thanks Desterto

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/23/2021 12:53:02 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 4341
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 1:03:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Agreed, and this is the point I was trying to make in 4329.

Look at the fees Real and Barca and Juventus have paid for some players over the last few years. Totally unsustainable.

Trouble they have is that the likes of Man City and Chelsea have come along and threaten to outspend them.

Whilst I have ZERO sympathy for those two Spanish clubs, we in England know what its like to face this sort of situation. Historically Chelsea and Manchester City were not on a par with Spurs - but along comes oil money and......

They governing body have tried and failed with FFP. I don't know what the answer is. We've been lucky in England so far and we are not in a Scotland/Germany/Italy/Spain situation yet. But look at the number of domestic trophies won by Manchester City in the last four years. There is an argument to say we are getting there.....

When Pep can spend over £300 million on his defence alone then there is clearly a problem - even for the likes of United and Liverpool (whose owners are in it for the buck).

As Barce showed with Coutinho, you only need one mistake when you are spending such colossal amounts on players you couldn't really afford in the first place.

But really pleased to see Crawley Town show some resolve and turn down the ESL. Good for them.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 4342
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 1:11:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Lolz... according to leaked documents Barca and Real Madrid were to receive €60m more than the other teams

...and there is a £130m penalty fee for exiting. I'd like to see who is going to pay that and to whom?

Spurs certainly can't afford it....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4343
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 1:22:56 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Lolz... according to leaked documents Barca and Real Madrid were to receive €60m more than the other teams

...and there is a £130m penalty fee for exiting. I'd like to see who is going to pay that and to whom?

Spurs certainly can't afford it....


there is an article by Sid Lowe in the Guardian today (and he is well connected re things Real etc) that suggests that Perez is claiming its still a live project as no one has paid to exit (I can't find it on their website).

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4344
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 1:31:16 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		In a situation like this, I suspect the clubs that pulled out will say to the 2-3 remaining clubs, You want the exit fee, you sue us for it.

But I hear JPM have pulled the financing so there isn't a viable project still in place in any case - either from the participants or the financials point of view.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/23/2021 1:40:34 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 4345
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 2:21:09 PM   
Piteas


Posts: 192
Joined: 3/10/2014
From: Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...and there is a £130m penalty fee for exiting. I'd like to see who is going to pay that and to whom?



JP Morgan is the investment bank behind the ESL. Morgan will want his money and he is a dangerous rival in the courts. The 12 teams will have to find tactics to pay the fee as late as possible, because they will pay the fee... JP Morgan never forgives.

Right now, the Barca CEO excuses himself saying that the supporters will vote "yes" or "no" for ESL in an assembly. It´s "more democratic", he said
Perez says that Real is "stand by" about the ESL, "Real isn´t gone", "the others is failing". Clearly, he´s looking to avoid the fee.
So the ESL is dead, but it will bring a lot of troubles for these 12 teams... Maybe they deserve it




< Message edited by Piteas -- 4/23/2021 2:22:22 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4346
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/23/2021 2:32:58 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piteas

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...and there is a £130m penalty fee for exiting. I'd like to see who is going to pay that and to whom?



JP Morgan is the investment bank behind the ESL. Morgan will want his money and he is a dangerous rival in the courts. The 12 teams will have to find tactics to pay the fee as late as possible, because they will pay the fee... JP Morgan never forgives.

Right now, the Barca CEO excuses himself saying that the supporters will vote "yes" or "no" for ESL in an assembly. It´s "more democratic", he said
Perez says that Real is "stand by" about the ESL, "Real isn´t gone", "the others is failing". Clearly, he´s looking to avoid the fee.
So the ESL is dead, but it will bring a lot of troubles for these 12 teams... Maybe they deserve it



warspite1

Well I'm guessing as I've no idea about the terms, but even based on 9 teams pulling out, that means JPM collect over 1bn for doing jack (it would be different once they actually dished out the cash).

But also I would have thought an exit fee would be at least partly payable to those clubs remaining, after all the viability of the project depends on the finance - but the finance depends on the income and the income depends on who is participating.

Difficult to see JPM scooping up a billion in profit for a project that never got off the ground and that they never actually shelled out money for. But what do I know....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Piteas)
Post #: 4347
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/24/2021 11:37:34 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		What are UEFA playing at????

So Real Madrid are in the Champions League semi-finals. But despite everything, Perez is insisting that the ESL will still happen and that no one - including JPM - has withdrawn.

But the ESL is designed to destroy the Champions League and Perez is still insisting this will happen.

So WHY are UEFA acting like this???? Kick Real Madrid out now. To not do so makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I fear that lots of fine talk that got this thing stopped will prove to be just that... talk. If that happens then this thing will simply re-surface.

Madness.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4348
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/24/2021 9:38:34 PM   
Piteas


Posts: 192
Joined: 3/10/2014
From: Spain
Status: offline 		I think that the rich teams and UEFA want to forget this shameful matter ASAP.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4349
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 4/25/2021 6:44:19 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Piteas

I think that the rich teams and UEFA want to forget this shameful matter ASAP.

You said it.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Piteas)
Post #: 4350
Page:   <<   < prev  143 144 [145] 146 147   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: All things Football (soccer) related Page: <<   < prev  143 144 [145] 146 147   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.766