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Tigers vs. BT-7

 
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Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 3:18:12 PM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		I read in the manual that each combat element of same type (e.g tanks) contribute equally to the CV values.

So if one formation has 50 tigers (GER) and the Soviet one has also 50 Bt-7 with identical terrain and moral etc, they will have same CV values?

If so, how the combat engine represents the better quality of tank models?
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RE: Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 3:28:56 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

I read in the manual that each combat element of same type (e.g tanks) contribute equally to the CV values.

So if one formation has 50 tigers (GER) and the Soviet one has also 50 Bt-7 with identical terrain and moral etc, they will have same CV values?

If so, how the combat engine represents the better quality of tank models?


because the estimated cv is not how the combat model works. That takes into account the characteristics of the weapon system so a Tiger will destroy pretty much all the BT-7s with no losses.

You see this in reverse quite a lot in 1941. Hit a Soviet tank division with BTs/T-26s etc and the losses are very one sided. Hit one with t34s/Kv1s and Axis losses rapidly increase - the axis may well still win the encounter but with a very bruised Pzr division.

one of the many reasons why the cv is useful as a guide but its not how the actual combat model works out.

Equally, being pragmatic, I can't think of any chance the Soviets are still using BT-7s by the time the Germans can deploy the first Tigers.

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RE: Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 3:39:12 PM   
fulcrum28


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/28/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks a lot.

But then how does the combat model works? where can I learn this information?

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RE: Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 4:06:54 PM   
First_Contact_Gamer


Posts: 62
Joined: 4/12/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

Thanks a lot.

But then how does the combat model works? where can I learn this information?

I don’t know the specific manual references for you off hand but I’d say a very insightful way to see some of the impacts in the model would be to increase your combat message level detail to max. Watching the updates will provide a lot of insight.

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RE: Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 4:26:13 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: First_Contact_Gamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

Thanks a lot.

But then how does the combat model works? where can I learn this information?

I don’t know the specific manual references for you off hand but I’d say a very insightful way to see some of the impacts in the model would be to increase your combat message level detail to max. Watching the updates will provide a lot of insight.


excellent advice as a lot of this comes from practice. Section 23.8 of the manual will take you through the detailed rules and procedures, section 30.9.5 of the player's notes will give you some idea of the things to look out for when interpreting a potential battle

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RE: Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 4:31:18 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 898
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline 		You don't need to watch high level battle reports like in WitE1 to gain good combat engine intel, it is FAR more intuitive now imo.

Just have a browse at the "Ground combat" and "Ground losses" tabs, when looking at battles
If you correlate fort levels, terrain type, asset types you can gain the basics of how certain assets perform

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RE: Tigers vs. BT-7 - 6/18/2021 5:35:36 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Combat Value is something that actually has very little to do with combat.

It is a calculated value based on what ready elements a unit contains. There will be several multipliers/divisors. Finally, at the end of combat, the CV of the attacker will be compared to the CV of the defender. If you have 2-1 (or greater) you take the hex. Otherwise you do not.

That's it. Combat value doesnt do any actual combat.

When you hover over the hex you get a CV value for the defender and the attacker. This takes into account terrain and fortifications...so it may appear that the defender is very strong.

But let's say you attack anyways......well...first, combat occurs. Reserve units activate, support units get allocated...artillery fires, aircraft bombs.....elements march forward each doing damage to the enemy until the combat is over. Then CV is calculated to see who won.

Terrain and fortifications will act as a divisor.....leadership rolls, can act for both sides. Only ready elements will contribute to this number, so all those disrupted/damaged elements during the combat no longer do squat for holding (or taking) the hex.

So in the above example of the Tigers vrs the BT's.....well....before combat you may have only a 1-1 for the tigers, or even worse if the BT's are dug in.....But after combat most of the Tigers will be ready, and most of the BT's will not be.

And at the end of combat....the CV's are compared...if the attacker has 2-1 or more...the defender retreats.

The retreating side will suffer additional losses to disrupted/damaged elements (which is one good reason you want to win), and may suffer a rout.

So don't let CV be your guide in combat...use some common sense.....if you are an army attacking a division, it doesnt matter if he is dug in. He will probably retreat just from all the losses during combat lowering his CV, while he is not big enough to do very much to the army


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