Help - Attack order in battles

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Help - Attack order in battles - 6/22/2021 4:13:15 PM

varangy

Posts: 198
Joined: 11/1/2018
Status: offline

Help me figure this out: how does the attack order affect the battle outcome? How can I achieve the best outcome?

Take a look at the following 2 pictures. It is the same battle just with different order of which unit attacks first, second, etc.

Post #: 1

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/22/2021 4:31:41 PM

Soar_Slitherine

Posts: 426
Joined: 6/7/2020
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The game simulates a round of combat to determine the values used for estimating the odds, so I believe it's just the result of the random number generation during simulated combat that changed here. You can directly see in the screenshots which factors changed, and none of them have anything whatsoever to do with the order the units are added in.

(in reply to varangy)

Post #: 2

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/22/2021 8:49:26 PM

scottrossi

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/4/2020
Status: offline

i realize it probably is RNGesus playing games like Soar_Slitherine says, but I have found more often than not, it seems that spacing out mechanized units with infantry tends to get the odds higher, so I do much what you do in the 2nd pic. 2-3 buggies, tanks, etc and then 2-3 infantry (foot and motorized)

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)

Post #: 3

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/22/2021 9:38:13 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

There is some variation within the odds. This is just a bug with the prediciton and does not indicate performance.

Some relevant points:
- concentric attack. Attacking from more direcitons is better. It can give you a bonus of up to +200%. Absolutely nesseary if the enemy is entrenched. However the bonus is halved if you use units that are not all under the same OHQ (or even if you throw in the OHQ itself).
It is better to make two well coordinated attacks, then one poorly and overstacked one. Or even sending in one unit, while the other defends.
Concentric attack also increases the stacking limit considerably.
- Armor. Small arms count as 20mm. But even a simple buggy can easily carry 100mm armor, applying a -80% penalty to small arms fire. While it is primarily a defensive bonus, not receiving damage allows your buggies to attack combat turn after combat turn, strategic turn after strategic turn with minimal readiness losses until the enemy is ground to dust
- leave them a escape. Fully encirceling the enemy makes ordered retreat impossible and panic retreat less likely. It is a classical trick of the mongols to leave the enemy a escape route, so they break quicker. This looks like a minor and their forces despawn the turn after they lost their city.
- avoid sending in troops with poor readiness. They just take damage quicker, causing you more losses and getting you whole attack to stall out earlier. Often it is better to wait 1 turn for recovery then attacking now.
- Infantry is generally poor in attack. They just are cheap enough to replace (from the IP side, manpower is another question) that you can afford to use them

Your primary attack froce are the purple Formation. Split them over as many directions as possible. Then wait for decent readiness - if they try a breakout attack, even better!
Put 2 of those independant buggies under the same OHQ. If you need reinfrocements and can not afford to build them, disband the 3rd unit.
Asuming those are a minor, consider leaving them a escape hex. One of those fields, not the forrests.
You should not need to shell them with artillery. They are only enemy militia level troops and artillery ruines the buildings and population that you want to capture.

(in reply to scottrossi)

Post #: 4

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/23/2021 5:59:24 AM

laagamer

Posts: 50
Joined: 4/22/2021
Status: offline

The order they're placed in has nothing to do with attack order or victory ratio, as I understand it.

Page 293 of the manual states that before the first turn, subunits are assigned initiative scores between 0 and the particular units initiative score, which I don't believe is visible.

The RNG of this inevitably makes it impossible to determine exact attack order.

Though, of course, there are still front line and backline units i.e. infantry vs artillery. Frontline units needing to breakthrough to attack backline units.

Basically, the RNG provides a bit of randomness to every combat encounter, much like real life.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 5

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/23/2021 5:15:10 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

The game simulates a round of combat to determine the values used for estimating the odds, so I believe it's just the result of the random number generation during simulated combat that changed here. You can directly see in the screenshots which factors changed, and none of them have anything whatsoever to do with the order the units are added in.

I'm pretty sure that the odds display doesn't simulate a full combat round ?
Actually it *does* change with the order of units.
I don't buy that it's a question of randomness, because you get the same odds with units in the same order.
Or then it's random with a fixed seed ?

Also, can someone explain to me why Commanders and experience would give *negative* bonuses ?

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< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 6/23/2021 5:18:20 PM >

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)

Post #: 6

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/23/2021 5:15:43 PM

BlueTemplar

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Post #: 7

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/23/2021 7:11:30 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
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Yeah, so as I expected, there seems to be no combat simulation going on :
- For vehicles (including walkers) the (unmodified) Offensive Power just seems to be the sum of Combat values of all the troops (subunits).
- For APCs with infantry it's the sum divided by √2.
- For just infantry it's divided by 2.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 8

RE: Help - Attack order in battles - 6/23/2021 9:24:43 PM

Soar_Slitherine

Posts: 426
Joined: 6/7/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Those odds are just an estimation guys. And it is baded on simulating 1 combat round of battle. Changing the order of the units could result in slightly different results in that simulation since a lot of random rolls are involved and something like the butterfly effect might occur.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 9