[WAD] SA-5 with NCTR-JEM?

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[WAD] SA-5 with NCTR-JEM?

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[WAD] SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 9/17/2021 6:12:26 PM

rickywild

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Joined: 2/23/2021
Status: offline

I was testing detection range for stealths against some SAM systems and found out that SA-5 (5N62 Square Pair) in the game has NCTR-JEM capability (in DB), not bad for late 60s.
So, it detects F-117A at 108nm.
It detects F-35A at 84nm, classifies it at 24nm with NCTR mode.

Is it a bug or a feature?

P.S. I added a mission it attached file.
If you do nothing with incoming planes, they won't be recognized, but if you mark them as hostile they will be, that is another strange thing

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 11/4/2021 12:36:32 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 9/17/2021 6:42:10 PM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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As to the NCTR capability, the SA-5B got an upgrade to its radar systems that gave it the NCTR ability fairly early from what I can tell. My only source is SAM Simulator, but that guys to know his stuff.

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RE: SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 9/17/2021 8:00:20 PM

rickywild

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2021
Status: offline

Thank you for info about SAM simulator, looks interesting.

I heard (it was a video on YT with a man who served at Soviet PVO on SA-5) that you as an operator can know target size by signal/distance ratio and what engines it has because props made a huge splash on screens.

Looked through the SAM simulator manual, it is almost the same info, but with screenshots.

So, IMHO, it's ok for SA-5 to classify that plane is a fighter or a bomber, but not ok to say it's definitely an F-16, let's say.

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RE: SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 9/17/2021 8:24:47 PM

thewood1

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Isn't that the whole point of NCTR? Every plane model/engine configuration has its own unique profile I thought. Thats why its used for IFF.

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RE: SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 9/17/2021 9:00:47 PM

rickywild

Posts: 9
Joined: 2/23/2021
Status: offline

I think it works for modern systems, but not for the soviet 60's one.
Just like acoustics in sub sims. If you play a WW2 one - you can only detect is it a warship or merchant, but in modern you can detect ship type, how many blades it has and so on

I don't think anyone can say a plane model with tools from SAM Simulator manual that you mentioned above.
(sorry, I'm newbie on forum and can't post links or pictures)

P.S. After some runs I found out, that this detection works only in very specific conditions made by the player

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RE: SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 9/17/2021 10:28:40 PM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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It wasn't added in the 60's. The 60's thing is just the base radar tech. The more important date is the one listed with the unit in the database. NCTR was part of an upgrade program, most likely in the late 70s or in the 80s. I can't find an exact date. At that point a digital computer was added for fire control and to manage target recognition (not sure if this is NCTR). Here are the dev's comments on NCTR in the game.

https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=2711

Not sure if that helps, but its all I have. If you get some sources on it, you can start a third thread in the database correction requests thread.

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RE: SA-5 with NCTR-JEM? - 11/4/2021 12:35:56 PM

Dimitris

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rickywild
Thank you for info about SAM simulator, looks interesting.

I heard (it was a video on YT with a man who served at Soviet PVO on SA-5) that you as an operator can know target size by signal/distance ratio and what engines it has because props made a huge splash on screens.

Looked through the SAM simulator manual, it is almost the same info, but with screenshots.

So, IMHO, it's ok for SA-5 to classify that plane is a fighter or a bomber, but not ok to say it's definitely an F-16, let's say.

Strictly speaking, the system will not tell you it's an F-16. It will, however, show you a very distinct frequency pattern of returns, somewhat similar to how a passive sonar detection will show you a very specific frequency pattern per-class (and, if the system is good enough, even per-hull).

Now, if you're an experienced operator and you have seen this pattern before (or have been trained well enough to recognize it), you'll quickly be able to make a reasonable deduction. If you are a green op, it will probably take a lot longer or you won't be able to identify it at all. This is why older NCTR systems (e.g. on Square Pair) depend a lot on crew proficiency, whereas more modern kits (e.g. APG-63 MSP, APY-1/3 etc.) are far more automated and can be used effectively even by newbies.

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