Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Stukas are dive bombers and must reach the airspace at over 8000 in order to use their dive bombing bonuses. So your Stukas were level bombing and sitting ducks for the AAA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I would probably just not use the Stukas for airbase bombing and reserve them for ground support where needed after the Soviet VVS is battered/eliminated near the border.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

I tried some GA at 5000 and 7000 as you suggested and found that there were some intercepts but less than normal. Was that luck or a random result - I don't know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Stukas are dive bombers and must reach the airspace at over 8000 in order to use their dive bombing bonuses. So your Stukas were level bombing and sitting ducks for the AAA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Stukas are dive bombers and must reach the airspace at over 8000 in order to use their dive bombing bonuses. So your Stukas were level bombing and sitting ducks for the AAA.

Hi Carlkay,
My understanding is that the flight altitude is only set for the run to the target and, then, aircraft will be attacking as they are configured for. So, the Ju 87 should fly at 5,000 ft all the way to the objective, climb at 8,000 or above for the attack and then turn back at 5,000 ft.

Their higher loss ratio is probably due to the fact that they are much slower than fast German level bombers, hence easier kill for AA/Interceptors (in the game). In reality, above the objective, dive bombers are more difficult to hit by AA fire than level bombers -as they require direct hits.

Escort for Stukas is the way to go in this game, as it was in reality (scores of Stukas were lost to fighters since Poland) but this won't prevent AA losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Stukas are dive bombers and must reach the airspace at over 8000 in order to use their dive bombing bonuses. So your Stukas were level bombing and sitting ducks for the AAA.

Hi Carlkay,
My understanding is that the flight altitude is only set for the run to the target and, then, aircraft will be attacking as they are configured for. So, the Ju 87 should fly at 5,000 ft all the way to the objective, climb at 8,000 or above for the attack and then turn back at 5,000 ft.

Their higher loss ratio is probably due to the fact that they are much slower than fast German level bombers, hence easier kill for AA/Interceptors (in the game). In reality, above the objective, dive bombers are more difficult to hit by AA fire than level bombers -as they require direct hits.

Escort for Stukas is the way to go in this game, as it was in reality (scores of Stukas were lost to fighters since Poland) but this won't prevent AA losses.

no, carlkay is right. If you send in your dive bombers too low then they don't use that option. So that is fine with the later war FW-tac bombers and the Soviet Sturmoviks but not with a classic dive bomber

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Stukas are dive bombers and must reach the airspace at over 8000 in order to use their dive bombing bonuses. So your Stukas were level bombing and sitting ducks for the AAA.

Hi Carlkay,
My understanding is that the flight altitude is only set for the run to the target and, then, aircraft will be attacking as they are configured for. So, the Ju 87 should fly at 5,000 ft all the way to the objective, climb at 8,000 or above for the attack and then turn back at 5,000 ft.

Their higher loss ratio is probably due to the fact that they are much slower than fast German level bombers, hence easier kill for AA/Interceptors (in the game). In reality, above the objective, dive bombers are more difficult to hit by AA fire than level bombers -as they require direct hits.

Escort for Stukas is the way to go in this game, as it was in reality (scores of Stukas were lost to fighters since Poland) but this won't prevent AA losses.

no, carlkay is right. If you send in your dive bombers too low then they don't use that option. So that is fine with the later war FW-tac bombers and the Soviet Sturmoviks but not with a classic dive bomber

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The lower altitude exposes the aircraft to a smaller window of detection and thus harder to intercept. You just have to be careful because too low and small arms may hit them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iam5not8

What you get from the game engine, is impressive and interesting.

When trying to "omptimize" T1 AIr, I reach 3k SOV losses with no loss by interception, but with 60+ directives and 10K+ missions, using automated mission settings (therefore flying 9000ft). With that amount of missions, my Ops losses are rocketing (188 to be exact).

Managing the details of the air directives seems to be a real winner.
Specifically to optimize the number of groups assigned to a mission, I mean to find the minimum needed to achieve the objectives, is the good way to limit the operational losses.
To achieve the same level of SOV ground kills, my LW did 8x times more missions than yours... fuel and ammo wrongly consumed, and 6x times more operational losses.
That is in fact, quite obvious, but that is the first time, I really realize the difference between full manual management, and semi-automatic (manual objectives, automatic mission settings).

Then I used 63 air directives on T1 versus 33 on your side. I definitively need to review that.

On the 5000ft, as I used the automatic mission settings, all missions are set at 9000ft, and there were only 2 interceptions made by Soviet on T1 (for 63 directives).

Thanks for that input on air T1. It definitively gives great hindsights on how to improve.

Have you made experiments on payload ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Also, don't know who wrote it in another post but you can 100% have more than 32 Air Directives and they will all go off if done properly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

It was actually a surprise to me when I found out that RECON missions automatically changed altitude for optimum camera usage. That removed a lot of micromanagement and careful RECON organization to optimize the RECON missions. All other missions take place at the altitude that you set in the mission directive. Dive bombers require a minimum of 8000 altitude to achieve dive bombing tactics. The rest of the aircraft fly level and true at the set altitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Also, don't know who wrote it in another post but you can 100% have more than 32 Air Directives and they will all go off if done properly.

This limit seems to be set at 32 ADs by "Air Command", meaning that your 3 Luftflotten can theoretically go off with up to 96 ADs (but no more than 32 each) + Independant Allies Command ones. I've never verified it as it seems that 32 each is already more than enough.

Your result is very good indeed, one of the best possible I've seen with such a low attrition rate. Nonetheless, I would gladly trade 100+ more fighter losses in order to eliminate 3,000 Soviet crew instead of 539. Good luck now for taking out the mostly intact Bomber Force in the rear bases without an effective fighter cover.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

It was actually a surprise to me when I found out that RECON missions automatically changed altitude for optimum camera usage. That removed a lot of micromanagement and careful RECON organization to optimize the RECON missions. All other missions take place at the altitude that you set in the mission directive. Dive bombers require a minimum of 8000 altitude to achieve dive bombing tactics. The rest of the aircraft fly level and true at the set altitude.

It's written in the manual (from memory, I don't know where) that Fighter-Bombers flying at 5,000+ ft (and higher?) will conduct their ground attack at 1,000 ft. I guess that I infered from that part that it would be the same for dive-bombers and that set altitude was not related to ground attack configuration. I've searched in the manual for the 8,000 ft bonus but couldn't find it either. For the rest, it makes sense for level bombing but not so for tactical bombers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I would probably just not use the Stukas for airbase bombing and reserve them for ground support where needed after the Soviet VVS is battered/eliminated near the border.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I would probably just not use the Stukas for airbase bombing and reserve them for ground support where needed after the Soviet VVS is battered/eliminated near the border.

Now, you can use Stukas too to bomb airfields on T1.

We have seven groups of Ju 87 which would be able to destroy about 350 Soviet airframes (+/-50); Also, we can send them unescorted at 8,000 ft without fearing interceptors by using the "34 method". What you said about them having a dive-bombing bonus at 8,000 ft make them usefull again because I only used my Stukas lower in order to avoid too many Flak losses. Now, they might lose a dozen aircraft to AA fire and a few operational losses but it seems worth for destroying 350+ soviet Fighters (If I'm doing T1 airfield attack, I'm aiming at destroying as many Soviet fighters as possible, like HLYA did, because our auto-intercepting 109s will slaughter more of their bombers during the ground phase at a lower casuality price).

Actually, the only aircraft with bombing capability that I'm not sure is worth sending to hit Soviet airbases on T1 is the Bf 110 because mines are consistently doing very little damage (or I just didn't find the good setting to use them efficiently). Maybe a very low altitude strike (1,000-2,000 ft) can increase their bombing damage with 12 x 50kg GPHE Bombs payload. The number of aircraft per strike I'm using for Bf 110 is 9 and I'm setting 6 strikes/Group, which total less than 2 sorties per a/c. So, I can take a few more operational losses for low alt flying only if this is worth the damages caused.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

There is a limit on the total aircraft you can reach within range without taking an astronomical amount of losses on long haul bombing. Thus, why I sent 110's back for retraining. But you are correct on the Stukas use and should be used but seem to be a glass canon with lots of loss potential. Is it worth it? If it is then I would do it :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Just a note that I moved my fighters forward all the way past Minsk in the Center and past Rovno in the South. The Soviets just ran out of bombers for me to intercept.

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

There is a limit on the total aircraft you can reach within range without taking an astronomical amount of losses on long haul bombing. Thus, why I sent 110's back for retraining. But you are correct on the Stukas use and should be used but seem to be a glass canon with lots of loss potential. Is it worth it? If it is then I would do it :)

I do think that the limit is rather set by the number of groups at disposal rather than the lack of in range targets, even without using ext. fuel tanks. I could use twice the number of level bombers that we have! I do think that long haul losses can be mitigated but it's always a trade off vs efficiency.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Just a note that I moved my fighters forward all the way past Minsk in the Center and past Rovno in the South. The Soviets just ran out of bombers for me to intercept.

Are the rebasing support crew exp. in enemy territory not too much of an issue then for auto-intercept?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Were the 2 interceptions long haul bombing runs or stukas?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iam5not8

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Were the 2 interceptions long haul bombing runs or stukas?

1st was Stuka
2nd was HE111

But both were on airfields close to the border.

In the order of Directives, I try to focus first on the figher ones ofc, close to the border, and step by step getting inside Soviet Union. So far I dont pary real attention to the flak.

When I'll have time, I'll will revisit this Air T1, with your inputs on Manual Mission settings.