Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/16/2021 9:57:48 PM)

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


From Macbeth spoken by Macbeth written by William Shakespeare




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/16/2021 10:14:29 PM)

In post #1 is what playing the Germans feels like after the initial assault. But I LOVE challenges & this one is no different. I will be playing this game different than the one I have with Jubjub since in that game I had a great deal of "AD HOC Musings" I have been trying. Should come out interesting at least :). Or at least I hope so.

Guctony & I have agreed to a new game with the following rules;

* There will be a 4 turn delay on the AAR. Guctony wanted this for the sake of his other games. I will honor this in the AAR
* No using Airborne Regiment to circumvent Guards limit
* No Para's
* Full use of all Assault HQ's for both sides
* No Early End scenario. (This way Soviets get to play & have fun in 43 & 44)
* Motorization with the following rules;

Motorization(bought by AP) is allowed by each respective side in "white" or "light red" hexes. Hexes that are "red" can not be moved into by "motorized units" bought by AP, hereafter referred to as "motorized unit"

First lets define the Hexes

White Hexes: German (Soviet if active player) occupied/converted hexes
Light Red Hexes: Recently occupied Hexes
Red Hexes: Soviet (German if Soviet player turn) occupied/converted Hexes


Any Motorized unit can move only in white and Light Red Hexes.
Any motorized unit can Attack from white and Light Red Hexes to any hex.
Any Motorized unit can not be used to convert Red hexes but can attack from Light red hex to attack red hexes with enemy units.

**** Guctony note ***** Nominally Motorized Units should be refrained from converting Red hexes to light red hexes. (Only normal Moto and/or PZ units should be able to do so). They should move like Brigades or Regiments without converting hexes around them. (but its hard to achieve I know) It should be normally Hardcoded to Game that motorized units to behave like a brigade/regiment Or if they are division they should move after divided to regiments, ( but its to much of a hassle to do so). ****

* There will be commentary by both sides on game play with major analysis after 20ish turns.










HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/16/2021 10:30:15 PM)

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:23:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance


I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.




jubjub -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:36:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance


I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.


Halder subverted hitlers orders to concentrate on the south and instead deployed the army to make Moscow the primary objective. So I’d say Maikop for the oil, but you’re kind of stuck with Halder’s plan to some extent.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:50:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance


I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.


Halder subverted hitlers orders to concentrate on the south and instead deployed the army to make Moscow the primary objective. So I’d say Maikop for the oil, but you’re kind of stuck with Halder’s plan to some extent.


Thank you for your objective.

So will taking the Oil fields in 42, since no way in hell I think I can get there in 41, will hamper the Soviet Union? Will Germany benefit from taking the oil in this game? I believe it is yes for Germany but not so sure on hampering the Soviet Union. Plus holding those fields for any period of time would be short lived at best. But if enough people vote for the Oil Fields I will go for it.




AlbertN -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 1:58:37 AM)

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 2:21:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!


Thank you for your objective.

Curious why Leningrad over lets say, "Moscow"?




Rosencrantus -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 3:21:59 AM)

I want to see a Southern focus this game (Orel, Kursk, Stalino, maybe Rostov) please. The open terrain should allow you inflict heavier losses on the Soviets and give the panzers maximum operational capability. If all goes well, it also opens up a 42 strike to the Caucasus and Stalingrad. Would suggest Leningrad as 2nd objective. Moscow is too difficult to capture without secure flanks and with the terrain and constant reinforcements the Soviet is usually able to stall out to winter.




Aurelian -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 3:37:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance


I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.


As Herr Hitler stated, Moscow was of no importance. (He did change his mind later, but too late) Hoth was diverted toward Leningrad, but Hitler didn't want to take the city, but rather starve it out, walk in, and raze it. Guderian went south to help destroy Southwest Front, and
Adolf was more interested in the economic bounty of Ukraine. He even insisted on smaller pockets. So, Leningrad under siege, (or take it)and taking Ukraine.

Gorky, well, Halder did suggest it at the Orsha conference. To which Guderian's chief of staff exclaimed "This is not the month of May and we are not in France." Some sanity there.




Jango32 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 6:38:50 AM)

Let's go with the actual German multi-phase plan at least in Army Group Center; pocket and eliminate the Red Army all the way to Moscow and take the city.


Phase I, capture Minsk and Belarus to destroy the forces inside the Western Military District.

Phase II, let us destroy the pre-war Soviet reserves by capturing the area around Smolensk, where they will likely concentrate en mass in or around the Land Bridge.

Phase III, we must head towards the Moscow-Kalinin-Tula triangle and eliminate the remaining main body of the Red Army there; should Moscow be threatened, Guctony will surely make a stand there to defend it with most of what he's got. In addition to all the logistical, economical (production) and administrative/political damage (66 VPs), it will present us with the opportunity (hopefully) to pocket and eliminate the main body of the Soviets.

With that in mind, diverting 4th PzGr and/or 1st PzGr, or only specific corps attached to them, to aid AGC should be an option to take when it presents itself. Maybe 1st PzGr should swing from the south from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov-Kursk-Bryansk.

No major diversions from this strategic goal should happen; i.e. let's not divert parts of 3rd PzGr to 4th PzGr to assist in taking Leningrad, and by the time they're in a position to do something about it we divert them back to 3rd PzGr in the center for seizing Moscow.




AlbertN -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 7:27:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!


Thank you for your objective.

Curious why Leningrad over lets say, "Moscow"?


Narrative wise?

Close the Baltic entirely, link up with Finnish forces, maybe impress Sweden further as it will be entirely surrounded by German lands.

Plus it will be different from the game vs JJ.




Beethoven1 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 10:34:03 AM)

Feldmarshall HLYA,

Pay no heed to these incompetent old guard generals. They do not understand the economic basis of modern war, and consequently attempt to misguide your strategy and lead Germany into ruin. Remember, these aristocratic Prussian generals are the same people who lost the First World War.

The Fuehrer's critics mistakenly caricature his economic focus as a focus on resources, oil, the grains of Ukraine, and armaments. But no, this misunderstands and fails to appreicate the Fuehrer's world-historical genius. What is economics? Economics is nothing but logistics. Economics is the process whereby people acquire goods and consume them. And that is the very essence of logistics - the acquisition of military goods by the army and their consumption. Logistics are directly dependent on railyards, pushing freight.

Among German Field Marshalls, only you fully grasp the genius of the Fuehrer's economic understanding. Consequently, the Fuehrer has relieved Halder of command and put you in charge of the entirety of Operation Barbarossa, and the broader long term War in the East (2).

The Fuehrer has developed a top secret RAILYARD MAP of the Soviet Union, which he now presents to you for your consideration. The green numbers on the map denote railyard size:

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/832784705942192188/885106923421179994/WITE_2_railyards_map.jpg[/image]

The Fuehrer will soon also send a private message to Field Marshall HLYA with some additional strategic details, which HLYA may disclose at the time and place of his choosing, so as not to give away too much advantage to any NKVD spies that may be lurking. Furthermore, HLYA has been granted blanket authority to disclose certain disinformation to mislead the Bolshevists.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:45:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I want to see a Southern focus this game (Orel, Kursk, Stalino, maybe Rostov) please. The open terrain should allow you inflict heavier losses on the Soviets and give the panzers maximum operational capability. If all goes well, it also opens up a 42 strike to the Caucasus and Stalingrad. Would suggest Leningrad as 2nd objective. Moscow is too difficult to capture without secure flanks and with the terrain and constant reinforcements the Soviet is usually able to stall out to winter.


Thank you for your objective.

Really starting to look like a Southern thrust ;-)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:47:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, now that the formalities are out of the way & I have not started yet I need an Adolf Hitler moment. You being Adolf Hitler. Where does Adolf Hitler want his Generals to concentrate on as the primary & secondary objective for 1941 by Dec? Based on the responses I will set a primary & secondary objective based on the replies. Please keep it reasonably obtainable in 41. Gorky is not a reasonable answer.

Thank you in advance


I guess I will have to start sending $10.00 for posts on Primary and secondary objectives.


As Herr Hitler stated, Moscow was of no importance. (He did change his mind later, but too late) Hoth was diverted toward Leningrad, but Hitler didn't want to take the city, but rather starve it out, walk in, and raze it. Guderian went south to help destroy Southwest Front, and
Adolf was more interested in the economic bounty of Ukraine. He even insisted on smaller pockets. So, Leningrad under siege, (or take it)and taking Ukraine.

Gorky, well, Halder did suggest it at the Orsha conference. To which Guderian's chief of staff exclaimed "This is not the month of May and we are not in France." Some sanity there.


Thank you for your objective.

Another Leningrad and Southern objective.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:49:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Let's go with the actual German multi-phase plan at least in Army Group Center; pocket and eliminate the Red Army all the way to Moscow and take the city.


Phase I, capture Minsk and Belarus to destroy the forces inside the Western Military District.

Phase II, let us destroy the pre-war Soviet reserves by capturing the area around Smolensk, where they will likely concentrate en mass in or around the Land Bridge.

Phase III, we must head towards the Moscow-Kalinin-Tula triangle and eliminate the remaining main body of the Red Army there; should Moscow be threatened, Guctony will surely make a stand there to defend it with most of what he's got. In addition to all the logistical, economical (production) and administrative/political damage (66 VPs), it will present us with the opportunity (hopefully) to pocket and eliminate the main body of the Soviets.

With that in mind, diverting 4th PzGr and/or 1st PzGr, or only specific corps attached to them, to aid AGC should be an option to take when it presents itself. Maybe 1st PzGr should swing from the south from Dnepropetrovsk to Kharkov-Kursk-Bryansk.

No major diversions from this strategic goal should happen; i.e. let's not divert parts of 3rd PzGr to 4th PzGr to assist in taking Leningrad, and by the time they're in a position to do something about it we divert them back to 3rd PzGr in the center for seizing Moscow.


Thank you for your objective.

Looks like a vote for center :)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:54:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Leningrad as primary objective.

Moscow and Rostov the secondary objectivse and a more reasonable yet beyond history reaches '41 line! Instead of the A-A line the L-M-R line!


Thank you for your objective.

Curious why Leningrad over lets say, "Moscow"?


Narrative wise?

Close the Baltic entirely, link up with Finnish forces, maybe impress Sweden further as it will be entirely surrounded by German lands.

Plus it will be different from the game vs JJ.


Makes sense :)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 12:58:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

Feldmarshall HLYA,

Pay no heed to these incompetent old guard generals. They do not understand the economic basis of modern war, and consequently attempt to misguide your strategy and lead Germany into ruin. Remember, these aristocratic Prussian generals are the same people who lost the First World War.

The Fuehrer's critics mistakenly caricature his economic focus as a focus on resources, oil, the grains of Ukraine, and armaments. But no, this misunderstands and fails to appreicate the Fuehrer's world-historical genius. What is economics? Economics is nothing but logistics. Economics is the process whereby people acquire goods and consume them. And that is the very essence of logistics - the acquisition of military goods by the army and their consumption. Logistics are directly dependent on railyards, pushing freight.

Among German Field Marshalls, only you fully grasp the genius of the Fuehrer's economic understanding. Consequently, the Fuehrer has relieved Halder of command and put you in charge of the entirety of Operation Barbarossa, and the broader long term War in the East (2).

The Fuehrer has developed a top secret RAILYARD MAP of the Soviet Union, which he now presents to you for your consideration. The green numbers on the map denote railyard size:



The Fuehrer will soon also send a private message to Field Marshall HLYA with some additional strategic details, which HLYA may disclose at the time and place of his choosing, so as not to give away too much advantage to any NKVD spies that may be lurking. Furthermore, HLYA has been granted blanket authority to disclose certain disinformation to mislead the Bolshevists.



Holy smokes!!! That is a very large map and very well done with lots of great information! Thank you for sharing that!!!!!!!

I will read the emails after all my morning conference call this morning. Thank you again.




tm1 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 1:43:10 PM)

The Marcks Plan Dec 1940


[image]local://upfiles/44686/D1749398381E421A96AE786641DA17C5.jpg[/image]

There should be a Southern drive it would be a diversionary attack during 1941




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 1:48:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1

The Marcks Plan Dec 1940


[image]local://upfiles/44686/D1749398381E421A96AE786641DA17C5.jpg[/image]

There should be a Southern drive it would be a diversionary attack during 1941


You are setting Moscow as the objective?




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 1:49:26 PM)

Mr Billings which primary objective would you like to see Sir? :-)

Thank you in advance for your primary objective.




tm1 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 1:55:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

You are setting Moscow as the objective?


Yes Moscow must be taken first [:D]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 1:56:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tm1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

You are setting Moscow as the objective?


Yes Moscow must be taken first [:D]


Thank you for your objective.




carlkay58 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 2:54:20 PM)

I would settle just to see if you can match the historical results - cut off Leningrad, outskirts of Moscow, and Rostov.




vvs007 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 3:09:40 PM)

quote:

* No Early End scenario. (This way Soviets get to play & have fun in 43 & 44)


-finally! [&o]

-what about the historical surroundings on the first move (without the southern one)?, Jukovs mechcorps did not died for free in counterattacks [:(]

-no goals (good luck comrade Guctony! [;)] ) , but if you can use beautiful mod GeneralsMap pls [:)]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 3:18:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vvs007

quote:

* No Early End scenario. (This way Soviets get to play & have fun in 43 & 44)


-finally! [&o]

-what about the historical surroundings on the first move (without the southern one)?, Jukovs mechcorps did not died for free in counterattacks [:(]

-no goals (good luck comrade Guctony! [;)] ) , but if you can use beautiful mod GeneralsMap pls [:)]


All my games are "No Early End" scenarios after the release of this scenario. It is only fair.

So you are looking for a historical 1st turn for Germany? You going to hold me to a historical 2nd turn ? 3rd turn? If that is the case I guess I could just cut and past chapters out of a history book of WW2 and not do a thing.





HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 3:19:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I would settle just to see if you can match the historical results - cut off Leningrad, outskirts of Moscow, and Rostov.



Thank you for your objective.





K62 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 4:38:23 PM)

Crazy idea but maybe Pskov - Smolensk - Voronezh - Novorossiysk is possible in '41 if you put all FBDs and naval aviation in the south.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 4:42:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: K62

Crazy idea but maybe Pskov - Smolensk - Voronezh - Novorossiysk is possible in '41 if you put all FBDs and naval aviation in the south.


So, if I am understanding this correctly you want to hold in the north & Center by reaching Pskov, Smolensk, Voronezh, and making the primary objective the South?




vvs007 -> RE: Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet) (9/17/2021 5:11:40 PM)

quote:

All my games are "No Early End" scenarios after the release of this scenario. It is only fair.


of course its were all won early (Bravo Master!). There was hope for M60A3TTSs strong resistance! , but something does not start in any way, it's a pity.

"finally"... in the sense that this is an example for other matches (for other players) to write for houserules! Fight till the end! :)

Good Game!

p.s. of course You are free to play as You want (this is to the question of "historical" moves 2,3 - of course it doesn't make sense, we love the WITE2 for simulating different paths: "what would happen if ...")

p.p.s. English is not my native language, sorry if I offend someone, it is difficult for me to express my thoughts correctly and gently.




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