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Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1st turn?

 
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Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1st turn? - 10/24/2021 7:34:47 PM   
greaseman

 

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Joined: 2/8/2008
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Hey all, just purchased this yesterday - amazing game. I'm working through the rules and have played the Intro Scenario Velikie Luki numerous times, as both Axis and Soviets.

Question: When I play the Axis, the Soviet AI takes Velikie Luki on the 1st turn with a direct combat by the 381st Rifle Division. The combat result window is shown here. I tried over and over again to duplicate something like this while playing the Soviets, and can't even come close. I'm sure there is an answer that will appear over time as I read the manual and play more, but wondering if there is someone that has an answer to this....?




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RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/24/2021 8:47:05 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

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Interesting. I did play several times the Velikie Luki scenario and such result seems to be completely random. Most of the times, the AI simply surrounded the garrison before attacking it. Are you playing on which difficulty level?

(in reply to greaseman)
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RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/24/2021 9:42:12 PM   
greaseman

 

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I'm playing on Normal difficulty. I tried it several times and each time the Soviet AI takes Velikie Luki on the 1st turn with that same division. The combat value modification for the Soviets is incredibly high - that's why it's bugging me because I'm trying to learn the game and have no idea how to launch an assault like that. For fun, I ran AI vs. AI and the Soviet AI did the same thing.

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RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/25/2021 12:55:37 AM   
potski

 

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Joined: 7/12/2021
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Playing with 1.01.15_Beta I launched the scenario three times playing as Germany Normal Difficulty, and on none of these did the Soviet AI launch any attack on Velikie Luki on the first turn, nevermind a successful attack. It launches the same four other attacks each time. I believe it's first turn at least is scripted, it is not random. I then loaded the game with myself as the Soviets. I played the scenario a few times before that way, but a while ago when the game first released. But I tried moving the 381st Rifle Division into an adjacent hex to the city on the east of the city, so it is not over a river, then launching a hasty attack. The attack against the well dug-in garrison (fort level is three) fails abysmally. There is no special technique to getting that result, I think it is impossible if you are a player because no infantry division on it's own with hardly any support units and using a hasty attack can take down a city fort. The key to doing it, and the AI does this, is first surrounding the city. That should be your first objective, quickly getting units across the river to the north and south. This isolates the city, and the garrison suffers combat penalties. but while you can move into these hexes during the first turn the ownership of the hexes does not change until after the first turn, during the logistics phase. So it doesn't matter what you do on turn 1, the city can only be isolated on the second turn.

the garrison also suffers combat penalties if it cannot retreat. This can be done during a turn, because you can occupy all of the hexes around the city, so the garrison has no friendly hex to move into. And the screenshot appears to show that situation. Except that it shows the combat result asa one German unit surrendered and the other retreated. So the attack on the city couldn't have been the last move by the AI, it must have moved to occupy the last hex after the city was attacked by the 391st.

Also, the garrison has more than 7545 men at the start of the scenario. So that suggests that the city was already attacked and reduced in strength before the 381st attacked. yet I can see the combat is "1 of 1", the city hadn't been attacked already in your games. Or it is reduced in strength by use of a Custom difficulty. If I use the Custom settings to give the Germans a very low morale then I can induce a surrender by the garrison on the first turn. But not from a hasty attack by the 381st on its own, but by a planned attack by some stronger units operating together.

While you have FOW enabled, so combat values for the Soviet units in the screenshot might not be accurate, none of the Soviet units are as strong as shown in your screenshot. I can see three guards units 9=9 even after they have engaged in combat and one has moved over the river. And an infantry division 12=19 which has moved over the river and looks like it also engaged in combat. The Soviets don't have units that strong on Normal settings.

Can you check your custom difficulty settings please.


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RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/25/2021 5:29:04 PM   
Joel Billings


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Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
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There is something very odd going on here. The first turn is scripted, and there is no attack on VL that should take place. I saw another report of VL being attacked on turn 1, but could not duplicate it. I can't explain how this could even happen. The unit that attacks it should be moving around VL. Because of the way the script is done, if an attack is made, it is guaranteed to win (at least 2 to 1 final odds). So if it tries to move into VL, it will win the hasty attack. But it isn't scripted to do that. It's like it has a mind of it's own. We could try to rescript the turn, but since we can't duplicate this and don't know what's causing it, it may not work. In any case, if this happens to you, then I suggest you stick with playing the Soviet side in this scenario.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/25/2021 11:59:30 PM   
greaseman

 

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Thanks for the responses! I poked around with it a bit more and here's what I discovered.....If Fog of War AND Movement FOW boxes are both checked (enabled) for the Soviets, they will attack and take Velikie Luki on turn 1. This is regardless of the FOW settings for the Axis. As long as those 2 boxes are checked for the Soviets, it happens every time. If, for the Soviets, just Fog of War is checked, but Movement FOW is not checked, then they do not attack it on turn 1.

All test runs (including the ones the past 2 days) were done on Normal difficulty with no changes to any of the custom settings.

Curious on the comment "Because of the way the script is done, if an attack is made, it is guaranteed to win (at least 2 to 1 final odds)". Velikie Luki is so heavily fortified that the odds would be very much against that attacking unit, so wouldn't it have no chance to take it with a hasty attack? When I've tried while playing as Soviets, the attacking unit gets decimated. The CV is 30+ on defense in that hex. So, even when that Soviet unit attacks it on turn 1, there's really no way it should take the hex, right, even if it was scripted to attack it?

Regardless, it looks like some type of glitch based on the FOW settings. The good news is I learned a lot trying to figure this out - ha ha. Looking forward to the next Scenario.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 6
RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/26/2021 3:23:39 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Great work, you should be a tester. You're right that with movement FOW the script executes differently. We will look into it. Thanks.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to greaseman)
Post #: 7
RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/26/2021 11:07:49 PM   
greaseman

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline
Yeah, no problem. Moderate OCD is a blessing and a curse!

On another note, I fired up the Minsk intro scenario and wow....amazing. Playing as Germans and the sheer scope of ways to approach and execute this is fantastic - just love this game system all around and specifically the movement point system for actual movement and combat. Too much fun to create holes in the lines and push the Panzers through to envelope or race to objectives. This is by far the best computer wargame I've played and I've barely scratched the surface - my hardcopy manual is on the way and can't wait.

This game must shine in 2 player PBEM with full FOW enabled - I'm recruiting my face-to-face wargaming buddy to buy it so we can play.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 8
RE: Intro Scenario Velikie Luki - Soviet AI takes it 1s... - 10/26/2021 11:28:38 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Thanks for the positive words. It's nice to hear some good news. Although we like to get critical feedback and bug reports so we can make the game better, it can get demoralizing at times as we're only human. It's always nice to hear someone enjoying the game. Thanks again.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to greaseman)
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