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MIG Alley type scenarios

 
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MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/8/2021 8:43:00 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Just checking - I can't find any Sabre v Mig type scenarios, either official, or in the community pack. Is that right, or am I missing one somewhere? Does anyone know of any such scenarios that might be out there, that I've missed? Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/9/2021 8:53:22 AM   
c3k

 

Posts: 369
Joined: 4/25/2017
Status: offline 		This sounds very interesting...

(in reply to Phoenix100)
Post #: 2
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/9/2021 1:26:36 PM   
stolypin

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 12/23/2012
Status: offline 		I would love to see some (and would gladly purchase a DLC on the topic) but the closest thing we have currently is my one-and-only Command scenario, Stalin's Bulls, which focuses on hypothetical use of the TU-4 by the Soviets during the Korean War.

(in reply to c3k)
Post #: 3
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/9/2021 3:11:28 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Ok. Thanks. Hope someone good at scenario design can some day make a good Mig Alley scenario. Would be nice. Meanwhile, I'll look at Stalin's Bulls. Thanks Stolypin.

(in reply to stolypin)
Post #: 4
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/9/2021 3:14:04 PM   
stww2

 

Posts: 219
Joined: 5/23/2017
Status: offline 		There's a CSP scenario called "Meteors over Korea, 1952" I believe. I've never played it but judging by the title it at least involves jets, if not Sabres specifically. There are a handful of Korean War scenarios, but I'm not aware of any that specifically cover Mig Ally. As a practical matter limited air engagements between gun-fighters isn't exactly CMO's strong suit, since the AI doesn't really have any sort of sophisticated air combat maneuvering capability.

(in reply to stolypin)
Post #: 5
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 3:49:41 AM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 457
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline 		I've been thinking about adapting the Rolling Thunder Quick Battle into other theaters, and Korea is one I'm considering. There are a few problems:

-There isn't a lot for the player to interact with in this kind of mission. You send out an air patrol to a pre-defined location and the opFor intercepts you. What should the broader goal of the mission be? The time period lacks a lot of the nuance present in later time periods regarding tanker logistics, electronic warfare, dedicated SEAD, loadout options, radar use, etc.

-Swirling gunfighter dogfights are not really CMO's strong point. Doable, yes. But not strong. Probably going to end up in a big one-circle fight in the horizontal plane at constant altitude until one side runs low on fuel.

(in reply to stww2)
Post #: 6
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 7:35:16 AM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		I experimented a bit putting Migs into scenarios and playing other scenarios where it came down to guns-only fights and, yes, you are both sadly correct, boogabooga and stww2. It wasn't fun to watch. Either - as you said, Boogabooga - endless, stuck, one-turn fights at miraculously fixed altitude, or, worse, the jets were outmatched by slower prop fighters because they couldn't turn inside the slower machines and didn't have a clue how to 'energy fight' etc. So, for that reason alone, I think it would be a waste of time doing a Mig Alley type scenario - because dogfighting just doesn't work in-game. But also, as remarked above - what would you do? Plan long range caps, sit back and watch, basically. Yeah, maybe there's good reasons why no one has done one. Thanks.

(in reply to boogabooga)
Post #: 7
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 7:49:19 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.

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Post #: 8
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 11:15:42 AM   
Coiler12

 

Posts: 1203
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline 		One of the things I've started with a few fun scenario editor experiments and hope to make into a full-blown scenario that both features Korean War aircraft and plays to Command's strength is having a greater ability and willingness of the northerners/Chinese/Soviets to attack the UN fleet with aircraft.

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Post #: 9
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 10:08:30 PM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 457
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I experimented a bit putting Migs into scenarios and playing other scenarios where it came down to guns-only fights and, yes, you are both sadly correct, boogabooga and stww2. It wasn't fun to watch. Either - as you said, Boogabooga - endless, stuck, one-turn fights at miraculously fixed altitude, or, worse, the jets were outmatched by slower prop fighters because they couldn't turn inside the slower machines and didn't have a clue how to 'energy fight' etc. So, for that reason alone, I think it would be a waste of time doing a Mig Alley type scenario - because dogfighting just doesn't work in-game. But also, as remarked above - what would you do? Plan long range caps, sit back and watch, basically. Yeah, maybe there's good reasons why no one has done one. Thanks.


I wouldn't go as far to say waste of time. "Fun" is really subjective- CMO is extremely niche as it is. I understand the case for historical accuracy being as important a factor for some players' enjoyment as any of the detractors. Like a (semi) interactive history lesson.

< Message edited by boogabooga -- 11/10/2021 10:09:05 PM >

(in reply to Phoenix100)
Post #: 10
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 10:12:08 PM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 457
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.



Unfortunately, the B-29s and similar aircraft have been removed from the latest CWDB.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 11
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 10:34:38 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I think B-50s are in there and are basically the same in CMO.

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You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

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Post #: 12
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 10:42:58 PM   
Pygmalion

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/14/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: boogabooga


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Maybe something like the battle over Namsi where you have to plan out B-29 raids with escort over some long distances. CMO isn't a dogfighting simulation. Its looking at the more operational aspects of the battles. I would think DCS would do a better job of that.



Unfortunately, the B-29s and similar aircraft have been removed from the latest CWDB.


We never remove things from either DB; it would be horrible for backwards compatibility. My latest copy still has the B-29A and B-29B in there as DBIDs 388 and 2193, respectively.

(in reply to boogabooga)
Post #: 13
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 10:53:28 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		In CWDB 491 I can't find them.

_____________________________

You are like puss filled boil on nice of ass of bikini model. You are nasty to everybody but then try to sweeten things up with a nice post somewhere else. That's nice but you're still a boil on a beautiful thing! - BDukes

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Post #: 14
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 10:56:42 PM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 457
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline 		They are gone for me in CWDB v491.

(in reply to Pygmalion)
Post #: 15
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/10/2021 11:01:32 PM   
Kushan04


Posts: 683
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		Not sure why they are not showing in the DB viewer. Logged a bug report.

In the meantime you should be able to create them via lua.

< Message edited by Kushan04 -- 11/10/2021 11:20:24 PM >

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(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 16
RE: MIG Alley type scenarios - 11/11/2021 4:20:39 AM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 457
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline 		Not just missing from viewer. I tried to rebuild a scenario with B-29s; it failed because of the missing units.

(in reply to Kushan04)
Post #: 17
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