Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2
Yes - wait until US is in war otherwise significant jump in mobilization.

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ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2
Yes - wait until US is in war otherwise significant jump in mobilization.


Are you sure? There doesn't seem to be. Do you know how much and when?

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ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
US mobilization responds to Axis advances into Siberia, rather than to the declaration of war itself, and it will swing the US 5-8% per turn towards the Allies.

Any response should be pretty swift, e.g. the presence of just one Axis land or air unit within 1 hex of Vladivostok will be enough to trigger it.

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Ultimately, I see this a pretty gamey as its avoiding the particular Siberia mobilization check as Japan gets no penalty for declaring war in early/mid 1941 on USSR while still causing significant damage to them and is pretty unhistorical. But if this is standard play that everyone does then I guess it is what it is

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I agree that it is gamey but I've never seen it done. Who pulled it on you? Just 1 player or multiple players?

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ORIGINAL: redrum68

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
US mobilization responds to Axis advances into Siberia, rather than to the declaration of war itself, and it will swing the US 5-8% per turn towards the Allies.

Any response should be pretty swift, e.g. the presence of just one Axis land or air unit within 1 hex of Vladivostok will be enough to trigger it.

Hey Bill. There is a problem with this check being the only penalty for Japan. Japan can instead of moving ground units into Siberia (avoiding that check), can instead just bomb Siberia into oblivion causing significant damage while not having mobilization move up at all! This is particularly brutal if Japan bombs the towns/cities west of where the Russian Siberian forces spawn as they then can't operate to the Eastern Front and are delayed several turns while they force march in potentially low supply (destroying their morale) til they get far enough west past the bombed out towns/cities. These are the best HQ and 5 units (4 armies + heavy tanks) that USSR has in 1941 and without them there really isn't anyway to even slow the Germans down. USSR can maybe try to use some form of AA/fighters to mitigate this a bit but they don't have the tech levels to compete with Japan or MPP to afford being able to spend it on 2 fronts in 1941.

Ultimately, I see this a pretty gamey as its avoiding the particular Siberia mobilization check as Japan gets no penalty for declaring war in early/mid 1941 on USSR while still causing significant damage to them and is pretty unhistorical. But if this is standard play that everyone does then I guess it is what it is.

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That's very interesting. I have 40 games as Allies, more than 10 against players from TOP 5 ELO and I never saw that. Could you describe more what is going on?:
1. Do GER and JAP DOW on the same turn?
2. With what does JAP bomb? 1 STR? 2?
3. Which city is bombed and to what level?
4. Does USSR fighter intercept?

I am asking, because most USSR units spawn around Irkutsk/Ulan Ude, which has to be bombed below 5 to prevent railing them away. With 1 STR bomber it's not that easy to do, especially if RUS fighter intercepts.

Despite all of this, I wholehaertedly agree that an ahistorical scenario of Japan DOWing USSR is too common and too strong at the same time. It was many times mentioned that JAP gets so much stuff for free, they don't even have to take great measures to attack both SE Asia and USSR. IRL they had to choose, being already strained in China and in Syberia there was nothing wortwhile for them to take.

Funny fact, 3 years after release and new cheese strategies are coming to day light, how could one not love this game?

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Just 1 good elo player so far

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ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I understand, it's just that as things stand there isn't a way in the scripts to specify exactly which country has declared war on the USSR, so a more generalized approach is the only one available, i.e. it looks for movements across the border and penalizes those accordingly, and is currently the best we can offer.

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(until the reload bug is fixed and I fully agree with another veteran, Elvis JJonesRambo, that this is a big issue)

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I suggest to change the game and deploy the Siberians in Novosibirsk out of reach of Japanese bombers.

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Those are balance issues (or maybe not), but there is also an etiquette issue. Call me (very) naive, but I strongly believe players should refrain from abusing engine/scripts, because it simply destroys gaming experience and forces both players to play artificially, even in anticipation of weird things that may occur. You may of course house rule many things out, but soon both sides will come for a game with their lawyers. There are things like:
1. Usual ELO rules - no diplo on majors, no ussr dow in 1940, no Bulgaria diplo
2. Bringing all RN to Pacific and attacking JAP while they load troops on transport
3. Scouting with JAP fleet for other Axis powers
4. Blocking Red Sea with japanese ships
5. Bringing JAP SF to Africa in 1940
6. This new STR Bomber in Syberia 'strategy'
7. Atacking neutrals in Pacific by Allies to prevent JAP from taking them for free
8. 'All of France strategy' by dropping paras near Algiers (or was this fixed? That was serious issue, but not heard of this for some time)

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ORIGINAL: petedalby
Thanks for the explanation Taifun. I've just started a new game as the Axis and in December '39 I already see 2 UK armies in France with probably more to come. Your rationale on 'Action / Reaction' makes perfect sense.

I have no problem with the tactic if it's also combined with a land attack on the USSR by Japan to trigger the gain in US mobilisation.

To have a DoW without increasing US mobilisation is where it seems wrong to me.

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ORIGINAL: redrum68

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Those are balance issues (or maybe not), but there is also an etiquette issue. Call me (very) naive, but I strongly believe players should refrain from abusing engine/scripts, because it simply destroys gaming experience and forces both players to play artificially, even in anticipation of weird things that may occur. You may of course house rule many things out, but soon both sides will come for a game with their lawyers. There are things like:
1. Usual ELO rules - no diplo on majors, no ussr dow in 1940, no Bulgaria diplo
2. Bringing all RN to Pacific and attacking JAP while they load troops on transport
3. Scouting with JAP fleet for other Axis powers
4. Blocking Red Sea with japanese ships
5. Bringing JAP SF to Africa in 1940
6. This new STR Bomber in Syberia 'strategy'
7. Atacking neutrals in Pacific by Allies to prevent JAP from taking them for free
8. 'All of France strategy' by dropping paras near Algiers (or was this fixed? That was serious issue, but not heard of this for some time)

Agree. Most of the naval "scouting" issues can be fixed by putting more naval restriction zones for a few of the nations. For example:
- Italy should have a more restricted naval zone (essentially the Med) until they join the war (so they can't scout for Germany in the Atlantic)
- Japan should be restricted to just the pacific until they are at war with UK/US
- US should be restricted to just near its east/west coasts until they join the war

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ORIGINAL: petedalby
Thanks for the explanation Taifun. I've just started a new game as the Axis and in December '39 I already see 2 UK armies in France with probably more to come. Your rationale on 'Action / Reaction' makes perfect sense.

I have no problem with the tactic if it's also combined with a land attack on the USSR by Japan to trigger the gain in US mobilisation.

To have a DoW without increasing US mobilisation is where it seems wrong to me.

Actually the Siberia bombing strategy is very powerful regardless of France being weakly or strongly defended. And actually the earlier you start Barbarossa probably the more impactful it is as USSR will have less units so the HQ + 5 units are even more essential though you'll need to make sure you prioritize getting long range air with Japan early enough.

And yeah while the tactic itself is very strong, the gamey part is the not invading Siberia by land to avoid the US mobilization penalty which I think is really meant to represent Japan DoW on USSR since as Bill mentioned you can't check that 2 nations are at war with each other just whether they are mobilized.