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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> North Africa and Italy events moved back

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North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/4/2021 2:25:57 PM

Balou

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I got a message saying events in both TBs are moved back .
Questions:
1: does it happen randomly - extra forces are possibly no guarantee ?
2: or does it depend solely on troop percentages (ground and/or air) ?
3: what exactly means events are moved back ? Invasion of Italy will be postponed ?
4. is it advisable to leave this TB as is or can I bring those surplus troops back ?

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< Message edited by Balou -- 11/4/2021 2:30:29 PM >

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/4/2021 4:00:01 PM

Joel Billings

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It's based on your air, land and sea garrison values compared to the requirements. As you are over 100% of requirements there's a chance of getting a success each turn. Moving back events means a later loss of North Africa, later invasion of Sicily and Italy and later surrender of Italy. The exact amount moved back can vary and to see the details you would need to load the scenario in the editor and look at the events. Generally between 1 and a few days is what each success will gain you. Requirements can change over time, so it's good to keep an eye on how you are doing meeting the requirements.

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/8/2021 2:42:43 PM

Balou

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Is there any way to totally prevent/crush any of the forthcoming invasions or are they going to happen no matter how much you put into the TB ?

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/8/2021 2:59:44 PM

Jango32

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At the moment there is no alternate history possibility in the theater box system. The most you can do is delay Allied advances and gain APs + VPs as a result.

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/10/2021 9:43:11 AM

Balou

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Thanks for clarifying Jango, but I always got the impression that the whole of WitE2 is alternate history . So why not within TBs ?

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/10/2021 9:54:24 AM

carlkay58

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Too complex with too many possible branches so the design decision was to allow changing the timing but not the results in the other theaters.

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/10/2021 10:11:05 AM

Balou

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Thanks for this answer. Now that is interesting, almost philosophical. How much should one invest in say NAfr although El Alamein is going to happen anyway and the best you can achieve is a delayed invasion of Sicily and Italy etc. Meaning that you will possibly (?) prevent your italian divisions from leaving the eastern front to soon. True ?

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/10/2021 10:51:20 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Thanks for this answer. Now that is interesting, almost philosophical. How much should one invest in say NAfr although El Alamein is going to happen anyway and the best you can achieve is a delayed invasion of Sicily and Italy etc. Meaning that you will possibly (?) prevent your italian divisions from leaving the eastern front to soon. True ?

a few bits.

N Africa is hard to influence, when the TBs were first opened in testing (we had them since the very early versions but were told not to touch), almost every Axis player dumped a relatively large force in N Africa, since the extra:historical ratio is easy to escalate the result was a lot of delayed events - with knock on effects.

So the effect on N Africa is capped (not sure the values are available), so that you can't have an effective % over base line beyond a certain number.

So, me, I'd not sweat that Theatre. Realistically the Italian 8A will be withdrawn long before Italy surrenders regardless.

When the surrender event happens two things occur. One is you get fresh forces in the AR, these need to be refitted and most are probably better left in Italy but there are a few juicy ones in there - check out the Living Manual as I documented all these unexpected axis reinforcements after my 1941-44 Axis GC. The other is Italy comes into play.

Once the Allies reach the mainland that opens up the track to D-Day.

Now in both the West and Italy (even without full TB control) you can set up a nice stream of delays and extra VP. In the game above from late 43 to the game end I got about 25 this way (so the equivalent of 4 early lost cities). I've become a fan of dumping the weaker AA units into both TB, they are not that useful in Russia post-42 and they give a nice hit on both the air and ground demands.

Italy itself is in terms of events a dead end, a few raise the baseline requirement, a few alter combat intensity but its purely a VP source/loss.

West/France has a couple that matter. The Disaster in the West destroys 20% of the forces and --- these come back. And are then open to redeployment east or west to your taste. Paris ups your manpower allocation but hits your NM. The loss of Frankfurt is usually fatal as it takes off the NSS the Soviets can't reach. So the West theatre can impact on wider game play almost to the end.

As to branching/conditional events, the ability is there to code them. The problem is first the mechanistic one of getting the syntax right and then testing, do they fire as you want, if an unlikely but extreme outcome kicks in what is the wider effect. Given the number of moving parts in the main game, there was simply no way to test this sort of stuff safely - in the AAR I mentioned above I came up with a long list of issues simply as we had no other Axis 1941 GC go that deep (so they were sorted in StB or never came up)

Roger

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/10/2021 11:13:30 AM

Balou

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Great your chapter on TBs ! Since I adore logistics at least as much as tactics there is a lot of information in what you just said.

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/26/2021 7:28:10 AM

Balou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Now in both the West and Italy (even without full TB control) you can set up a nice stream of delays and extra VP. In the game above from late 43 to the game end I got about 25 this way (so the equivalent of 4 early lost cities). I've become a fan of dumping the weaker AA units into both TB, they are not that useful in Russia post-42 and they give a nice hit on both the air and ground demands.

Italy itself is in terms of events a dead end, a few raise the baseline requirement, a few alter combat intensity but its purely a VP source/loss.

West/France has a couple that matter. The Disaster in the West destroys 20% of the forces and --- these come back. And are then open to redeployment east or west to your taste. Paris ups your manpower allocation but hits your NM. The loss of Frankfurt is usually fatal as it takes off the NSS the Soviets can't reach. So the West theatre can impact on wider game play almost to the end.

Roger

Followed your advices. Delay in WE is possible to an extent I never dreamed of, picture is from an ongoing HvAI game at 100/100, no early end. BTW: do invasions depend on weather conditions ?

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< Message edited by Balou -- 11/26/2021 7:49:17 AM >

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/26/2021 9:07:45 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

...

Followed your advices. Delay in WE is possible to an extent I never dreamed of, picture is from an ongoing HvAI game at 100/100, no early end. BTW: do invasions depend on weather conditions ?

...

nothing so subtle I'm afraid, its simply Txxx (which itself is slightly random) + y delays

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RE: North Africa and Italy events moved back - 11/26/2021 9:14:06 AM

Balou

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Thanks and LOL. DDay in bad weather and Stalin furious.

< Message edited by Balou -- 11/26/2021 10:22:47 AM >

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Events moved back: fake news - 11/26/2021 10:33:16 AM

Balou

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Allied Propaganda at it's best

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RE: Events moved back: fake news - 11/26/2021 11:43:58 AM

loki100

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oddly if you are doing well the Falaise event that follows is a good one for you. It destroys 20% of the army in the West and puts it on the replacement cycle for 9 turns later. You then have a free choice as to what you use vs the Soviets and what you return to the West.

specific to the allied over-claiming. I believe the off map regions can only change ownership in complete blocks, so the map can't reflect hexes here or there but will reflect the loss of say the whole of Normandy. I don't think this is hard-wired (& in any case the blocks can be freely defined in the editor) but there are a few where x is announced to have changed hands and its not reflected on the map

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RE: Events moved back: fake news - 11/26/2021 12:26:04 PM

Denniss

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events may only change control of full map regions, not parts of it.

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RE: Events moved back: fake news - 11/26/2021 8:23:23 PM

glenhope

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I had 250% in the West and Italy and the events, while delayed a few months, are relentless.

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RE: Events moved back - 11/27/2021 12:45:18 PM

Balou

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In total contrast to all the attention to detail in the East, TBs at the present stage are simplistic beyond belief. In my game WE ground requirements came close to 190%, air/day+night around 150% and no D-Day until october (!) 1944 and in bad weather. My guess is that an invasion under such circumstances would have been a bloody failure in the first place.
So what about a message such as "Invasion has collapsed"" ?

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RE: Events moved back - 11/27/2021 1:48:03 PM

ShaggyHiK

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I am glad that in the game you cannot rewrite the story, but only try to reduce the risks.
I personally do not need another HoI.

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RE: Events moved back - 11/27/2021 2:15:46 PM

Balou

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So am I.
I try to understand the rules in WitE2.

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RE: Events moved back - 11/27/2021 2:31:26 PM

Balou

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One picture to illustrate my problem with TBs.

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RE: Events moved back - 11/27/2021 2:34:52 PM

loki100

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they are a simplification for a number of practical reasons. In part the W Allies don't exist, they simply generate friction (via the combat intensity measures), a relatively minimal hit on your production (via the bombing events). Not unrelated to this - no-one is playing them.

The final pragmatic bit is there is sense in keeping the game linear - this also relates to the lack of conditional rules and branching events in the game system.

In effect, balancing this game is not easy, if an area can seriously go off the rails then that needs to be evaluated, constrained if important, the effect evaluated and so on.

Realise this is saying nothing new but worth rehearsing. So yes the Allies can pull a D-Day in the middle of an autumn gale because the system simply tests mean date vs accumulated delays. Equally the Allies will make progress even against an over-stuffed axis Theatre ... but then the German player is probably picking up the sort of VP as to make a Soviet win even harder.

I'd love to see some meshing of WiTW with WiTE2 but its not easy to see how. The existing WiTW campaign dates are a poor match but that is trivial (in the sense it needs a lot of research but its doable), but there are some bigger issues. The worst is the game system assumes 2 sides and this may well go deep into the original game engine (ie change at your peril). That needs to be overcome to allow a 3 side war (even just at the level of sorting out the NSS-depot structures).

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