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Resource Factories only repair one point per turn?

 
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Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/1/2021 5:59:07 PM   
Yogol

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline 		When you capture the surroundings of Stalino, there are several places where there are heavily damage Resource Productions (Makeeka, Gorlovka,...)

Despite trying everything I know, these Factory Types do not repair more than one point per turn. I have put the factories on priority, I have added construction battalions to the city, I have built depots on the cities, I connected the cities to the railroad,... nothing helps: the Resource Production factories only repair with more than 1 point per turn.

In Makeeka, even when the railyard is already entirely repaired to 0 damage, the Resource Production is set on priority and there are TWO construction battalions in the city, the Resource Production still only repairs one per turn. The manpower "factory" in the city is not fully repaired yet but it is not placed on priority, like the Resource Production factory is.


So... how do I get the Resource Factories to repair faster than one point per turn?


< Message edited by Yogol -- 12/1/2021 7:46:16 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/1/2021 11:01:13 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		Not blowing you off, just need to check some things to give you a meaningful answer.

What is the factory size? (there is a bonus given smaller sized factories)

As far a "construction engineer's" impact on factory repair? I can't seem to find where the manual ever defines the construction engineer's repair rate bonus. It seems to imply they help somehow...

It goes into more detail regarding air bases and fortifications.

----

Now, I want to know as well how exactly does a construction engineer impact the factory repair rate?





(in reply to Yogol)
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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/1/2021 11:09:26 PM   
ShaggyHiK

 

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Germany does not have enough workers on its territory, but here Hitler wants to rebuild the captured Soviet production from scratch ... It seems to me that if you look at it from this side, the answer will be more obvious.

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 12:06:49 AM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Do the resource factories need to repair faster than one point a turn? Resources are not a problem in this game, getting freight from the NSS to the unit(s) is.

< Message edited by GibsonPete -- 12/2/2021 12:07:26 AM >

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 1:18:25 AM   
DeletedUser44

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Do the resource factories need to repair faster than one point a turn? Resources are not a problem in this game, getting freight from the NSS to the unit(s) is.


Pete, you have a point. And resources are probably not much of a concern in the grand scheme of things. But still, it is in the game and should at least be a table or something somewhere about how construction engineers influence resource factory repair rates.

Let's say they offer no repair bonus? (and I am OK with that) Then the game should at least disclose that so players aren't deploying construction engineers for no reason - thus wasting AP points and the opportunity cost of the construction engineer themselves.

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 2:42:11 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Your point is valid. I believe in a game as complicated as this it was an oversight. Perhaps a developer will provide some clarity.

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 3:04:17 PM   
Yogol

 

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Joined: 11/30/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

Not blowing you off, just need to check some things to give you a meaningful answer.

What is the factory size? (there is a bonus given smaller sized factories)






Makeevka and Gorlovka both have Resource Productions with NUM 28 (set on priority) and Manpower factory of NUM 3. Both also have fully repaired railroads.






quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

As far a "construction engineer's" impact on factory repair? I can't seem to find where the manual ever defines the construction engineer's repair rate bonus. It seems to imply they help somehow...

It goes into more detail regarding air bases and fortifications.

----

Now, I want to know as well how exactly does a construction engineer impact the factory repair rate?


In 28.6, the FACTORY CAPTURE, DAMAGE, AND REPAIR the manual states: "The priority factory repair functions allows player to use construction support units to focus repair efforts at the cost of admin points. Players may pay 1 AP and set a factory for priority repairs by accessing the city detail window (37.13) from the general information and city/airfield box (6.2) and then selecting the damage level of the factory they desire to institute priority repair."

So, this seems to say that construction SUs can be used to repair, no?

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 3:32:15 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		I read the same thing. But it never discloses the repair rate bonus, does it?

I could not find anywhere.


What is sad is that a player could pay up to 4 APs on this ( 1 for priority repair, +3 on construction engineers ), yet repair rate bonus may never have been implemented for resource factory repair.


Right now, I cannot tell.

----

I have a save game file I can use to check something out... just completely dump all possible construction engineers and priority repair on city with damaged resource factory....



< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 12/2/2021 3:53:00 PM >

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 4:12:25 PM   
panzer51

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 9/16/2021
Status: offline 		yeah, lack of transparency on some things needs to be addressed.

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Post #: 9
RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 4:25:50 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

....

In 28.6, the FACTORY CAPTURE, DAMAGE, AND REPAIR the manual states: "The priority factory repair functions allows player to use construction support units to focus repair efforts at the cost of admin points. Players may pay 1 AP and set a factory for priority repairs by accessing the city detail window (37.13) from the general information and city/airfield box (6.2) and then selecting the damage level of the factory they desire to institute priority repair."

So, this seems to say that construction SUs can be used to repair, no?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I read the same thing. But it never discloses the repair rate bonus, does it?

I could not find anywhere.


What is sad is that a player could pay up to 4 APs on this ( 1 for priority repair, +3 on construction engineers ), yet repair rate bonus may never have been implemented for resource factory repair.


...



here's a general clue, if the manual doesn't give an exact number its for one of three reasons. (a) its a value that is used for balancing and, as such, may well get shifted around so anything in the pre-release manual is misleading; (b) its hidden to avoid micro-management; or, (c) the actual calculation is insanely complex

So, priority repair as a status does nothing in itself - and certainly should never be double teamed with manual allocation. Why? Because priority repair is a flag to the AI allocation system that this location matters and, all things being equal, a construction unit will be assigned as soon as one is free

Now whats the impact of a construction unit. Well it varies ...

What does it vary on?

Size;
Supply status;
Weather;
Task

So a bigger Const unit (say a Soviet brigade) working next to a NSS on an easy to repair factory will do the business. A battalion, in poor supply trying to repair an oil facility will take longer.

So its not a linear formula (there are probably leader rolls just to make it more fun), its a matrix.

Which is why the exact rate is not in the manual, we would need a table for each task, reading across from the effective size allocated against weather conditions and adapted for supply.

I realise saying 'it should be in the manual' or

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

yeah, lack of transparency on some things needs to be addressed.


is fun, but in a lot of these cases, start to think about what the documentation would look like. Remember its the longest manual Matrix every produced and that we missed the target of <500 pages.

And, as a disclaimer, I wrote the damn thing. Over 5 years, with innumerable hours of cross checking with Joel and 2by3 that it said what it was meant to say ... and yes, inevitably, it came out with errors.

edit - despite the unpaid efforts of almost everyone on the active testing team in the 3-4 weeks before we had to finalise it to check for typos, cross-references, clarity and accuracy - that was a lot of voluntary hours given by people who had plenty of other things to do with their free time.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/2/2021 4:30:53 PM >

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 5:17:10 PM   
gw15


Posts: 919
Joined: 3/21/2010
Status: offline 		I find the manual with the appendix and the beautiful one page guides extremely helpful and one of the best I've seen.

Very well done.

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 8:06:22 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		(this took me longer to complete, had RL work I to do 1st )

Well as a test case with Krivoi Rog, 40 Resource Factories @ 33 Damage,

Did priority repair, and manually added 4 construction engineers. (for some reason I thought the limit was 3?)

Anyways, have Rail to it, as well as a level 4 Depot.

Supply Received was 2233. Currently has stockpile of 237 supply.

Anyways, after all of this, Krivoi Rog is now at 40 Resource Factories @ 32 Damage.

In essence, cannot tell any benefit toward adding the 4 construction engineers or Priority Repair in regards to Resource Factory repair rate.

However, railyard(3) damage went from 2 to 0, if it is any consolation.

< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 12/2/2021 8:10:42 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/2/2021 8:33:43 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		@loki

I think we all realize there are going to be some holes in the documentation. It is still a "work in progress".

I suspect most of the players are smarter than the avg bear. Most likely not afraid of seeing a little math in the manual. Would even wager have a pretty good grasp on linear vs non-linear mathematical relationships.

So even without a table, a rough formula would have been helpful?

Certain resources, such as APs are very finite. Knowing the cost-benefits on how to spend APs is important.

I have been spending APs for some time on things I probably should not have. A quick glance at a formula contained in an appendix would have gone far to help me determine how to not waste those APs.

Also, have played a lot of the old SSI games (showing my age now) and Gary was not hesitant to share some of the formulas with the users.

Now, some aspects of WiTE2 are documented extremely well. In that respect, you guys have set the bar and raised user's level of expectations. :)

It is only natural, when an area is not well-documented, we are all going to go through some level of WTF?

Don't take it personal. It is what gamers do. :)


(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 13
RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/5/2021 5:51:16 PM   
Yogol

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

here's a general clue, if the manual doesn't give an exact number its for one of three reasons. (a) its a value that is used for balancing and, as such, may well get shifted around so anything in the pre-release manual is misleading; (b) its hidden to avoid micro-management; or, (c) the actual calculation is insanely complex



I hear you. I really do.

But in this particular case there does not seem to be a hidden or complex formula: it can only go down with one point per turn, as opposed to what the manual says. It's all good, man: we all know things like this aren't easy & we all see the work that went in the manual.

But you can expect that people like me point ask questions when they have lost a dozen APs that could have been used to ramp up defences, that doesn't make me appreciate the game or the manual any less.

< Message edited by Yogol -- 12/5/2021 5:52:20 PM >

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/5/2021 6:20:07 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Perhaps it would be helpful if players informed one another what is a waste of APs. I do not know how many APs I used on port and rail repair before HYLA pointed out priority on the Port seems to also cover rail. Resource factory repair can now be added to that list. What about manpower?

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/6/2021 9:47:20 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		The problem that is causing this is that each type of industry has a different base repair rate. Resource industry represents things like coal mines, oil wells, etc. that are very difficult to repair by military engineering types. Manpower recovers the fastest from damage as it represents the population in the area and also does not benefit that much from military engineers. Rail, Military Equipment Factories (armaments, vehicle, or specific airframe/chassis), and port facilities are the best use of engineering resources. Port and rail centers are closely tied together in locations and thus are linked in repair to a certain extent.

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/6/2021 10:57:35 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

...
But in this particular case there does not seem to be a hidden or complex formula: it can only go down with one point per turn, as opposed to what the manual says. It's all good, man: we all know things like this aren't easy & we all see the work that went in the manual.

But you can expect that people like me point ask questions when they have lost a dozen APs that could have been used to ramp up defences, that doesn't make me appreciate the game or the manual any less.


the point I was making is there are multiple variables, even before you consider that not all construction units have the same value.

Target, some things repair more or less quickly
Weather, mud/snow slows repair
Supply, lack slows repair

So the question is fair, but there is no precise answer, which is why the game documentation doesn't contain a precise answer.

Fwiw, the only things I ever use construction units to repair are railyards and ports but that also links to how the production system interacts with on map freight distribution

WiTW is different, esp for the axis player but most things you repair to control the VP loss, the exception is to repair trucks and medium tank production as allied strat bombing of these can really wreck your army.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/6/2021 10:59:41 AM >

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RE: Resource Factories only repair one point per turn? - 12/6/2021 3:03:39 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		loki100 and carlkay58 thank you for facts. It will help me allocate APs and construction priority in a more productive manner.

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“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

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