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Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units

 
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Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 12:37:24 AM   
PeteJC

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2021
Status: offline 		Is there any harm in assigning slower SU units to faster divisions/corps? For example, assigning a werfer unit (Speed 0) to a Motorized Corps? I always assign the SP Panzerjager units to motorized corps and teh anti-tank panzerjager units to infantry corps. Am I just getting too far in teh weeds or is there a benefit or penalty???
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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 12:57:47 AM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		This is somewhat of a confusing issue, if not fully documented or disclosed.

If you were to open up the editor, you will see there are various transportation modes allowed for various SU TOEs and Units. (this is all from memory, so don't take this as exact...)

How these actually relate in the game is not covered in manual. There is some current speculation... and maybe more details in the scenario modification forum?

Anyways, at one time it was believed that if you assign a non-motorized pioneer to a mobile division, that you would also have to pay an additional cost in vehicles for that SU, to bring it up to speed with its parent unit.

I have not checked this recently and am not sure if that is still the case or not. But that is how I understood it worked.

(in reply to PeteJC)
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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 8:18:36 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

This is somewhat of a confusing issue, if not fully documented or disclosed.

....

How these actually relate in the game is not covered in manual. There is some current speculation... and maybe more details in the scenario modification forum?

....


I realise that you feel its really useful to stress just how good the documentation would have been if you'd done it rather than the idiot who did.

But lets apply common sense.

You add a non-mot SU to a mot CU, it needs to keep up with its parent unit? For that it needs trucks, so it takes the trucks needed to become a motorised unit.

So its a fairly simply relationship that runs back to WiTE1, if host CU is mot, all attached SU become mot (either by TOE or by claiming more trucks)

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 8:19:51 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		I have the same question as topic starter. Actually i wanted to create a new topic, but while we are discussing SU i will ask my question here. At 5x turn a lot of sp AA that were motorized and assigned to a panzer/motorized divisions disband. And there is no more motorized AA that can be assigned to a divisions directly. What do you do in this case?

< Message edited by Stamb -- 12/6/2021 8:20:04 AM >

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 8:27:03 AM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I have the same question as topic starter. Actually i wanted to create a new topic, but while we are discussing SU i will ask my question here. At 5x turn a lot of sp AA that were motorized and assigned to a panzer/motorized divisions disband. And there is no more motorized AA that can be assigned to a divisions directly. What do you do in this case?


specifically you'll find those AA assets are now actually part of the Pzr division TOE so its less a loss than it looks like.

there are still others than can be attached, I have a German game into 1943 and still have mot AA hooked to my Pzr divisions but the organic AA assets are a lot better than at the start of the game.

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 8:35:02 AM   
Stamb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I have the same question as topic starter. Actually i wanted to create a new topic, but while we are discussing SU i will ask my question here. At 5x turn a lot of sp AA that were motorized and assigned to a panzer/motorized divisions disband. And there is no more motorized AA that can be assigned to a divisions directly. What do you do in this case?


specifically you'll find those AA assets are now actually part of the Pzr division TOE so its less a loss than it looks like.

there are still others than can be attached, I have a German game into 1943 and still have mot AA hooked to my Pzr divisions but the organic AA assets are a lot better than at the start of the game.

Oh. There was an upgrade to new TOE and i did not pay enough attention to the AA. If it is a part of TOE then i have no problems :).

In my case previously there was 1 AA SU in each panzer/motorized div and now there are smth like 10 AA of that type on a map/reserve, obviously not enough for all mobile divisions. But if they are in a new TOE, i have to make sure that my units are using this new TOE.

Very helpful.

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 9:52:31 AM   
DeletedUser44

 

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quote:

I realise that you feel its really useful to stress just how good the documentation would have been if you'd done it rather than the idiot who did.


I guess you need to be more careful about incorrectly making claims about something being "clearly documented" in response to legitimate questions.

Even if it was "clearly documented", that is never an appropriate response to question from the community.

Your not an idiot, just acting overly defensive now.



< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 12/6/2021 9:55:39 AM >

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 10:53:24 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

quote:

I realise that you feel its really useful to stress just how good the documentation would have been if you'd done it rather than the idiot who did.


I guess you need to be more careful about incorrectly making claims about something being "clearly documented" in response to legitimate questions.

Even if it was "clearly documented", that is never an appropriate response to question from the community.

Your not an idiot, just acting overly defensive now.




I said you can readily get a grasp on this via common sense ... which is different?

If you check the forum there are a lot of posts from me explaining what is in the documentation, how to find sections, how to interpret and so on.

Now yes, the response follows the style of question ...

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 1:26:30 PM   
PeteJC

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2021
Status: offline 		Common sense could have also concluded that the chance the non-motorized SU unit will be attached/added to a battle goes down (possibly significantly) due to its inability to keep up with the faster forces. This is more simplistic but could have been the answer.

I like the addition of trucks. Certainly, makes sense. After taking a quick peek at my GC German set-up it seems that my concern is much ado about nothing. Pretty much all SUs are motorized to begin with except for Construction and Pioneer SUs. Construction SUs stay non-motorized even when attached to motorized corps (vehicle need 4). Pioneer SUs do become motorized when attached to motorized corps. Their vehicle need goes from 8 to 123 so these units will increase truck usage/need.

(in reply to loki100)
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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 1:41:05 PM   
Gunnulf


Posts: 686
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline 		While I think its clear that attaching units directly to a division or soviet combat corps then units will be motorised to keep up if necessary, but I feel like the answer to the original question was attaching units to Axis Panzer/motorised corps in which case I think the answer is no it doesn't matter what speed the SU units are when attached to such an HQ.

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RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 1:56:59 PM   
PeteJC

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2021
Status: offline 		My question was a general one, but I am concerned about German motorized corps as I play the Axis side. I am a single player and have found the AI better at defending than attacking. TBH I should have done my homework before posting and I would have seen what I just posted and my concern about adversely affecting my motorized corps would have gone away. Only the pioneers add a demand for more trucks. All others SUs are already motorized and construction SUs stay non-motorized.

It does make me question other things though. I tend to grab whatever I can from the reserves (assuming 100% TOE) and put them on the map. I may want to be a little more thoughtful about that and better weigh the benefit of putting another SU unit on the map verses the negative affect of its inherent demand on trucks. Basic stuff I know, but something that I have not been thinking about for the most part.

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Post #: 11
RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 2:38:57 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		PeteJC:
Your question was valid. The assignment of motorized and nonmotorized SU's to a unit has an effect on fuel, trucks and supplies. How great is effect to the overall impact of your forces? Not much. To some micromanagers it makes a huge difference. Will it change the outcome of your campaign? No. Don't sweat the ants when the elephants are stampeding.

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Post #: 12
RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 2:44:47 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		loki100;
I want you to know you have my appreciation for everything you have and are doing for this game. Please do not let the occasional sniping by a poster get to you. They obviously have an agenda.

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“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

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Post #: 13
RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 3:03:40 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteJC

My question was a general one, but I am concerned about German motorized corps as I play the Axis side. I am a single player and have found the AI better at defending than attacking. TBH I should have done my homework before posting and I would have seen what I just posted and my concern about adversely affecting my motorized corps would have gone away. Only the pioneers add a demand for more trucks. All others SUs are already motorized and construction SUs stay non-motorized.

It does make me question other things though. I tend to grab whatever I can from the reserves (assuming 100% TOE) and put them on the map. I may want to be a little more thoughtful about that and better weigh the benefit of putting another SU unit on the map verses the negative affect of its inherent demand on trucks. Basic stuff I know, but something that I have not been thinking about for the most part.

You can put SU on the map, and if you are playing with locked HQ support, and you should - they will go to OKH which you can keep on NSS.

(in reply to PeteJC)
Post #: 14
RE: Does Element Speed Matter When Assigning SU To Units - 12/6/2021 4:26:01 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteJC

My question was a general one, but I am concerned about German motorized corps as I play the Axis side. I am a single player and have found the AI better at defending than attacking. TBH I should have done my homework before posting and I would have seen what I just posted and my concern about adversely affecting my motorized corps would have gone away. Only the pioneers add a demand for more trucks. All others SUs are already motorized and construction SUs stay non-motorized.

It does make me question other things though. I tend to grab whatever I can from the reserves (assuming 100% TOE) and put them on the map. I may want to be a little more thoughtful about that and better weigh the benefit of putting another SU unit on the map verses the negative affect of its inherent demand on trucks. Basic stuff I know, but something that I have not been thinking about for the most part.


apols, I was picking it up as about direct link to Combat Units.

For HQs it doesn't matter, so put into the HQ non-mot SUs (artillery, heavier AA, all that sort of stuff) and the motorised Combat Units will pull them down using the usual rules.

In the main, I'd say don't assume complexity if its not indicated - specifically the SU--Combat routine takes no account of how 'fast' the SU is. Its primarily keying off the 5 hex range (there is a complication here if those hexes are all fairly high cost but usually you can ignore that) and the leadership values.

As GibsonPete above says, putting viable SU on the map is not going to give you a problem you don't already have. Even the Soviet brigade size SU are dwarfed in their supply hit by the rest of the Red Army.

Generally SU allocation is one of those areas where the player base seems to split. One chunk obsessively track everything using their own spreadsheets, the other block work on 'good enough' and getting the more specialist SU (heavy artillery, pioneers, infantry battalions and later on the heavy tanks) where they are most use. Against the AI, I'd heartily recommend the second frame of mind

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