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Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 8:16:19 AM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Once again trying to remember all the pros/cons for having 1 sub per patrol vs 1+ sub.

What are peoples thoughts on this topic?

Thanks

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 10:49:08 AM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
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Wolfpacks are not effective because sub task forces don’t coordinate.
It is possible to get more than one sub in a task force to attack in the
same phase but that happens so rarely that it is not worth doing.

There are just to many variables involved in a sub attack to get more
than one sub to make an attack run in a single phase.
The AE engine is not effective at doing this.

Don Bowen:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1983022
It is not just the variables in sub selection but also the variables
involved in the target selection as well.

You have much better tactical options available:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4825701


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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 11:16:05 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		What happens when surface ASW encounters a multiple sub TF could be interesting. Also as the Japanese I have had multiple sub TFs that included torpedo attack aircraft and planes from different subs apparently co-ordinated their attack. It's interesting that they can use torps while not in range of an HQ inventorying them. They aren't sub torps.

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 11:37:43 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		In spite of all the negative comments about how the game engine doesn't model Wolf Packs and only one sub per TF being able to participate in any given attack, I experimented with multiple sub TFs long ago.

The one benefit I found was in how the sub TF reacted to and followed target TFs allowing the additional subs within the TF to each have a turn at the target TF, albeit never within the same attack.

Multi-sub TFs routinely reacted and followed target TFs much more frequently than single sub TFs.

That being said, I didn't find this effect compelling enough to continue the practice.

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 12:29:04 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I think that it would be better to have multiple sub TFs with the same or overlapping patrol areas.

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 12:58:31 PM   
Trugrit


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The other thing is that you incur an opportunity cost.

An opportunity cost means that if you do one thing you lose the ability
to do another thing, or the other thing is much less efficient.

As an example:
If you put two subs in each task force you cut your patrol areas in half while
at the same time keeping the fuel consumption and wear and tear on
your submarine force the same.

Fuel consumption is critical for the Japanese; so a Japanese player would
want to maximize his patrol areas to increase his chances of an attack
and at the same not waste fuel.


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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 2:55:24 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		If you are hunting enemy CVs...having 2 subs is beneficial.

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 3:23:09 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		One thing that appears to help although I don't remember seeing anything in the manual nor in the game is if you have a sub in the target hex of an air attack. The sub seems to help recover pilots.


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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 5:04:38 PM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks, very helpful information. What about the max react setting for subs? Would you not always want them to react more than 0 hexes?



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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 5:06:53 PM   
abulbulian


Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Well I found this in the manual (6.2 Creating a TF), but UI still let's me change it to a non-zero value?

Its Patrol/Retreat Status defaulted to Retirement Allowed. For
Air, Surface, and Submarine combat TFs, Max React Range is
set to zero (reaction is not available for non-combat TFs.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 12/10/2021 5:07:44 PM >

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- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 5:35:58 PM   
tolsdorff

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 12/12/2016
Status: offline 		This topic from 2011 is what Alfred recommended in this topic from 2014 . Multiple links. Apparently definitive comments from the guy that programmed the sub algorithms as well.

As far as I gather from all the information, just 1 sub per TF is optimal.


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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 5:40:48 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Thanks, very helpful information. What about the max react setting for subs? Would you not always want them to react more than 0 hexes?


The maximum reaction distance is 1 hex.

You do not want them to react into a port sometimes due to minefields that may be there.

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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― Julia Child


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Post #: 12
RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 7:45:15 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Subs won’t react into a medium or large size port.

Sub reaction is an interesting question that goes directly to how
detection levels and reaction settings work.

Alfred did a long thread on reaction in which he ties together several pieces
of information from different sources. There is some discussion of subs in it.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3981594

In that thread he lists variables of the naval reaction algorithm.
Minefields and ports are one of them.

For subs the reaction is Type A.

But...How does a sub that does not have an air group embarked detect an
Enemy task force one hex away? An enemy task force that is around 80 nautical miles away?

Just because a player can see an enemy task force on the map that does not mean that the
task force commander can “see” the enemy task force as well and react to it if he has not
spotted it on his own.

I don’t think it can unless there is a certain detection level required,
die roll, radio or another factor I’m not aware of.

Subs don’t usually carry radar early war and Allied subs late war do carry the SS/PPISS
surface search radar with a range of 31,000 yards which is just over 15 nautical miles.

In the case of a subs reaction I think it is mostly based on enemy detection in the
same hex unless the sub is Japanese and has an air group embarked.

For me the important thing is how aggressive is the sub task force commander.
Will he react.



< Message edited by Trugrit -- 12/10/2021 7:49:05 PM >

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RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/10/2021 8:16:59 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		A sub's crew could detect smoke on the horizon and with a periscope up, they can look ever farther that topside. Also, they might get intelligence from a another sub or an HQ.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 14
RE: Thoughts on sub patrol size - 12/11/2021 10:18:59 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		The other 2 problems with multi-sub TFs is that, first, when enough of them have used enough ordnance to trigger a return to port to rearm, some of them return with full torpedo loads. Second, you need to check them often and split off any heavily damaged subs and send them home.

In any event, wolfpack tactics do not, to my understanding, mean subs sailing in formations and maneuvering as a group. They mean the sub in a picket line group detecting & shadowing a target TF and calling the rest of the group in, at which point they would wait until night and make individual attack runs on the surface. So, there is a level of temporal coordination to get on target, and then swamp the escorts, and that you can approximate in AE. [Edit - and some spatial coordination - meaning attacks coming from different directions.]

To save on a lot of map scrolling setting patrol zones, you might grab 16 subs at PH (and run through the skippers and make sure they are aggressive enough), and form them into one TF and send it over near Daito Shoto. When it gets there, hit the '6' hotkey to show all patrol zones, and then break it up into 16 individual sub TFs all with small overlapping patrol zones, and all on react 1. That way you can get multiple attacks on 1 TF in one night, and the escorts run out of ammo ;-).



< Message edited by Ian R -- 12/11/2021 10:22:43 PM >

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