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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

 
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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/27/2021 5:21:54 PM   
dudefan

 

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Status: offline 		that oil doesnt matter is a bummer

(in reply to AlbertN)
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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/27/2021 5:25:56 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T74 - Caucasus Dances, from Stables to Stars

On the other hand, if you hit something hard enough it can suffer greatly.

Here a well stronger Russian division got invested by a broadly superior Axis force and pratically melted away.
Admittedly this combat is the only one where I had a success of this magnitudo. But it is satisfying! A drop of honey after the recent bitter defeats around Leningrad and the Tigers!

For now the grand plan is to hammer and set back to my own original line roughly.

Though there is the caressed idea to move forward to the small riverline. It may be 'safer' and ideally it has a railroad right there that I could repair.

The logic is that this region has a milder winter in general and thus should freeze for a shorter amount of time. BUT there is a big concern that I've instead that is related to Geography.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/27/2021 5:50:52 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T74 - Caucasus onward!

Much to my surprise I found a line of relatively weak divisions, made a step after the other after I moved already an amount of units and an opportunity rose.

I took the 'half measure' for it, as per cut the 2 Soviet Rifle Divisions there for their logistic phase, but I am in no condition to encircle them (Without being smashed in turn when it's the Soviet turn).

Take note of what I consider 'ethos' in gameplay.

I know of the Airfield exploit. I have put in production a new airfield up there BUT I've not used it for air supply.
That would have been a nasty way to exploit.

What's the difference? Well in one case I am fixing a shortcoming of a shoddy logistic system that is starving my units beyond my control. In a sector I own since a while and I'd have built an airbase already if I was in better awareness.

Here instead I litterally just seized that hex! Thus to magically have the airbase to be used and abused fully ... not a good way to play.

So I started the new airbase, but made some air supply from the sky, in the closeby hex so it does not benefit of the airfield and I got only a portion of the freight on the spot, due to it being parachuted.

My situation here is ... peculiar as I exposed myself but I am not sure how far in the rear the Soviet cavalries and tanks are, IF they're still in the sector.

I pushed eastward air recon as you can see but no masses of units have been discovered.

I could use the Hungarian Panzers (Which in truth are bloated with German SU assets too - one of the Hungarian Panzers is nominally stronger than any other German panzer division I field due to the SUs inside it...) to strengten the line there but my main worry is a thrust between the Lake Manich and the Don River toward the Sea of Azov.

And the Hungarians are the local mobile reserves there. So I am not keen to relocate them from the sector that is already understaffed (from my perspective).

Saving on server as got stuff to do ... like dinner!




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 12/27/2021 6:07:50 PM >

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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/27/2021 6:17:22 PM   
Beethoven1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

All of the Air Units can contribute some to the final total. Recon is 'Patrol', and Fighters and Bombers are all listed there. Heck I could even bring Night Fighters supposedly to help against the partisans.


The funny thing is, night fighters probably would help against the partisans, because AFAIK they received a good amount of air supply dropped to them at night.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/16/soviet-partisans-the-rag-tag-scourge-along-wwiis-eastern-front/

quote:

Perfectly camouflaged, the airstrips were nearly invisible from the air, and the Red Air Force performed most of its supply operations at night with the partisans clearing away camouflage and lighting the airstrips with small fires set along the runway. Hand-picked partisans were also flown out of the occupied areas and were sent to a special school where they were given advanced training before flying back to their units.

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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/27/2021 7:58:48 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Beethoven: Good reminder, I knew of that but I it litterally flew over my head! Like a dark painted plane, yes! Alas, no night fighters to spare!

T74 - Defensive Evaluations

Presently I just feel the calm before the storm.

Air Recon netted these results, a phalanx of what I expect to be a bunch of Rifle Divisions interluded by Corps there.
I may scout with regiments soon but to move them fatigues them!

The whole German line is a mix-match of divisions and regiments that I feel can be 'hammered' where regiments are and then the whole front collapses once the Soviets punch the hole.

The Panzer reserves are not adequate for all the frontline - but I admit I may have an excess of them in the foresty and swampy sector north of Moscow

Nonetheless if I was the Soviets I'd merely do attrition fight. To advance overexposes to counterattacks right now. So I'd just dogpile with Rifle Corps any German regiment that is there and maul them into submission. Rince repeat.

The same rules that applied to Germany should apply to them. Right now a Panzer Division that I moved from a depot (the dreaded one north-west of Rostov) to another more 'amicable' to be put at Priority 4 for refitting had a good 20% of its panzers getting damaged just out of the marching from point A to point B.

I am very confident as soon as the riverlines freeze - and maybe once '43 hit that it's another NM shift ... the Soviets will come en mass and pound and pound. Only forts can only do so much.







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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/27/2021 8:48:11 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		AlbertN
I want to thank you for all of the hard work that you do to show the logistic system flaws!
And of course for a well written AAR!

< Message edited by Stamb -- 12/27/2021 8:50:34 PM >

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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 2:13:52 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T75 - General Winter arrives, and with it the Soviets

Central front, Voronhez to Rhyazan sector.

Enemy contact signalled, strong formations of the Guard.
I do not know which SUs are into that Corp, but their value overshadows the Panzer Divisions by a far, far shot.

Now I am of the opinion that a fully supplied, full TOE Panzer Division even in '45 should be over infantry - just by feeling.
The issue is that German Army in '45 was simply short of ammunitions, short of equipment, manpower, etc - certainly not short of fighting will (at least against the Soviets).

But here, here we're still in '42 leaning to the '43.

I've nothing that is nowhere close 32 nominal CV.
To get to roughly 20 pratically it has to be a ... 90% TOE Panzer Division as you can see, with 100 CCPs, exceptional supply and ... well being static and in position - because as soon as I am to move that Panzer Division, half of my panzers will get damaged (I assume these Guards too have max CCP though).

The two panzer divisions there, both inflated by a SU of different type, well match my description above. That is the type of numbers as German you can pull.

Even the Non Guard Rifle Corp is 20 strong!

The numbers are definitely not looking promising for the future to come.






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 2:22:52 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T75 - German's Finest...

Another sector of the front - here the SS that have even high morale AND 3 Panzer battallions attached get up to 28.

Some of the Soviet units here are more modest or simply stacked - 3/4 strong Infantry Divisions that probably got embattled recently.

Most of the German divisions are static since a while too hence the decentish values around.

But Panzers they move and fight some - and dang you can see them to 10 CV around the place. Less than most of the dug in infanteries.






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 2:25:22 PM   
Stamb

 

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Status: offline 		It might be a case that this panzers divisions on the left is using old TOE as it has 81 Panzer 38(t)E?
But on the right there are more modern tanks and still lower CV.
So i would assume that tank division should be stronger than guard or non guard infantry division, or maybe it is just an incorrect data from a recon that shows them as 32 and 23?

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Post #: 249
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 2:32:49 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T75 - Don sector

I may be making too big pictures I suspect, the quality has to be lowered a lot for them to fit in here...

Anyhow! The Soviets started to hammer already here. At the first attack the German division held the grounds but buckled in at the second bang.

A lighter attack followed up on the regiment just next to it, it was only two mundane Soviet divisions so the regiment has held the grounds.

Someone would say 'But you lost little to nothing!'.
That is because the Battle Report shows only the destroyed and not the damaged.

Anyone with enough knowledge of the game will easily understand that the German division 2-8 there, of the 'dark green' corps is the 71th, the one that took the beating.

In this sector supply is not abundant and the Soviets seem to be quite fresh and mighty.

But as no mobile assets on their end have been deployed yet, I am to keep the fight to the infanteries only.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 3:20:33 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Stamb: Guard Unit CVs seems to be roughly 17-18 when rested and CCP loaded. The numbers we usually see on the map are /10 of what we get in the combat log as baseline combat value, roughly.
Also Manual specifies that type of AFV does not alter how much CV it contributes (or at least shows). So in my understanding there a Tiger Tank has the same CV of a Panzer II. BUT the chances the Panzer II gets disabled and thus in the end does not count to the post-battle CV are well different of the Tiger - exactly as the Tiger probably ought to have more chances to achieve some result in destroying enemy ground elements vs what a Panzer II can achieve.

So ideally a unit with X tanks has Y CV, no matter which type of tanks are there. But I'd not be surprised if the real coding is more 'All Medium Tanks are worth the same CV' and 'All This-Tank-Category are worth the same CV'.

For what concerns the Guards, I can see from other battles that they're roughly 180ish, plus 20ish per Infantry Brigade or so; thus they get 25ish. I am not sure of the 30+ one but that's the first I saw and it could be an overstimation.

T75 - Don River Bend action

I decided to counterattack on that single guard corp that apparently had 8 CV in defence. And ammassed 5 German divisions for it. They did it. But suffered almost losses than the Soviets inclusive of their retreat ...

Mostly they exhausted themselves, gained fatigue, their % of supplies and ammos dropped ...

I pretty much shot in my own knee with the counterattack there. Especially in 'Defense Patch'.

The real problem in general is the perpetual shortage of reserves if I want to keep roughly a divisional front.

The AGN is overloaded due to Leningrad and that is where my 'reserves' would be to be plastered all along the front!

Now there will be the race of time, the Soviets must gain initiative so I cannot push the High Watermark up via Leningrad; and I ought to claim Leningrad as mine (if I manage) before they snatch initiative.

Initiative is at July '43 OR as soon the Soviets get my VP value under 640 here. (Am at 712 presently)






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 3:44:34 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T75 - Logistics in Caucasus

This time I used again the 'Port Trick'. I wish I could have this type of command also over inland zones, it would help big time.

I mean, IF the rail can get there and can get that quantity ... why I cannot replicate it at will in other spots where it is needed? That's beyond my grasp.

Tuapse was defined EXPORT PORT (Thus the first grabbers of freight) and then Priority 4.
What they do? Grab Freight from ... other ports. Via rail obviously! Both these ports are defined EXPORT PORTS as well.

But this way I have the certainness that the freight will come, in decent amount, and won't be shipped elsewhere.
In fact it gets the amazing amount of 6k Freight!

Which gets distributed. The closeby Romanians, despite being a Priority 2 Corps and thus supposedly should get supply up to 70% according to the manual, gets a truckload to match their ... 130% there! - I could average the Supply+Fuel+Ammo, that goes to 270 roughly /3 = 90%, as if they're Priority 3.

But no matter, it seems the supply problem is solved right?

No, lol. Wishful thinking.

I look some north and the merry Tridentina Division made absolutely 0 effort to get some freight.
Not only, we saw the turn before after the Air Supply it had 90% of its supplies in stock. And now 30% only? How much do they consume - and how much the fortification consumes... I do not know.
But it seems strange to me that they get 0 Freight at all.

They're Priority 2 as well - so they should tryo to get up to 70... averaging there, 110 fuel (much needed for mountain packmules), 100 of ammos, and 30 of supplies - that's 240, averages to 80%.

So I am starting to wonder IF the Priority level and the Percentages shown in the manual are not per Freight-Type but averaged out of the Supplies+Fuel+Ammo.

IF that is the case to have Supply Level 1 is pratically suicidal as Morale can drop massively down. - Factually the Romanian divisions here dropped all to 43 Morale due to I assume the failed fatigue tests and low supplies of the previous turn.

I already expressed multiple times my opinion on Axis minors morale and in general how easily morale of a unit drops after hard gains - that pratically it has been turned into a redundant parameter right now. It can just go with the flow. Infantry Divisions I nursed into 80+ morale in the '41 campaign simply are sitting around 70-72 just out of having sat down and entrenched in without ulterior activity or almost in '42 for reasons. I assume Blizzard or Snow just augments the fatigue, no matter how good entrenched some troops can be or just closeby grand depots.





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Post #: 252
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 4:31:22 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T75 - Axis Reserves

The heroes of Chevrnopets - or whatever is spelled - are honoured by new levies taking in the mantle of the 7th Panzer Division.

It is well seen they're new levies with bad morale and bad experience. It will take a long time to train them up in the reserves.

In the while other forces will be mobilized on the map - not that the strategic reserves abund either, a Panzer Division and fluff, fluff and more fluff. And flak.

On a note - we got more bombign runs from the W. Allies.

It is healthy to have a look around for damaged factories, and assign construction units or set priority repairs.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/28/2021 5:04:05 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T75 - Reaction Preparations

Not amusingly I realized the 11th Army got converted in ... Army Group Don.
Now I've there 3 Army Groups and I suspect some Germans either go overload OR I assign them to Romanians - I've already some Germans corps assigned to the 8th Italian Army.

Though I assume it won't be that sour to directly answer to the Army Group - ultimately the benefit of the 4th layer is minimal over just having 3rd in terms of command chain.
Especially if a middleman can be rather bad!

Anyhow - the Germans drift a motorized corp from the Caucasus, of the 1st Panzer Armee ontop of the refitting Panzerkorp.
I do not know how much I can rely on panzers and the like as the CVs were shown beforehand.
But as mobile reserve I've 4 efficient Panzer divisions and 4 decent motorized divisions.

There are more panzer divisions in the Caucasus but their combat efficiency is ... low. From 4 to 10 CV.

The other problem is the 'Voronhez-to-Rhyazan' sector where the bulk of the 'reserves' past 3 Panzer divisions are LW-Feld diggers...




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 2:01:55 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Don River sector

The Soviets continued their offensive, pouring in their mechanized forces as well.

Whilst the Italians (beefed up by German support units and artilleries) barely held their grounds against two rifle corps, the Soviet fist plowed through 6 German divisions (That I admittedly used to attack the Guard Corps that was there during my last turn).

Aptly the most entrenched pointe of 3 divisions was first embraced and then forced to rout.

Even if losses seem high for the Soviets, they're ever relative.
For the guns for instance most of the Russian losses are small caliber AT guns / mortars; while the Germans are losing an amount of 105s and 150s in the retreats.

I believe the Soviets do well to play via bruteforce, and not try encirclements.
I feel their losses are sutainable whilst mine not exactly so.

Each hex took only 1 attack; where you see the 3, 2 are recon flights and the 3rd is the ground attack that you can see at the side.




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 12/29/2021 2:04:19 PM >

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Post #: 255
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 2:06:26 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Romanians doing the usual

Melting away at first enemy contact.
That's a Romanian division that litterally ceased to exist in its entirety.

But it's right, it's how it is meant to be, they get attacked once and they melt away like snow to the sun right?




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 2:14:45 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Artillery Attack?

Here I see that MSAG shines in his ways of exploring and learning the game - a pure artillery attack without committing personnel to a bayonet assault so to say.

What I can see is that all weapons used have a shorter range than the 'Halt Range'. But I suspect that is a nominal value due to the special type of attack.

All in all it seems to me that counterbattery fire is okay - and mostly the 'issue' for the Soviets is that while they can hit this this and that, all the enemy fire goes on your guns.

Not that many were destroyed.

I am surprised though the Germans did not had any Corps-HQ level artillery taking part, because in general the counterbattery fire is made by the Field Guns type more than the divisional artillery.







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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 2:34:18 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - These Big Guard Units!

Here we can see what that big 32 CV unit was in truth.
217 + 14 + 10 + 4 = 245
So pratically it was a factual 24 CV unit, before battle casualties and dice rolls for tests pertinent to said battle.

I believe here my division got away in a decent status for the amount of Soviet forces cast at them.

These 40+ tanks of the Soviets are KV tanks ... it seems they are not that 'heavy' (and at this stage I'd not be surprised if my Tiger Tanks once in proper action will prove as resilient as Czech tanks...).
But hey maybe the spearheaded the attack and charge right in ...

I do not know the combat model well enough to assume these things but I feel in general it's just a 'get at distance X, fire at each other' with no inner tacticism or the like; hence I define it a quantitative system with a relative input of 'morale' as quality of troops, and larger input as quality of a ground element (ie. how much that gun was good, more than how much the operator of said gun was good). - I underline this is my sentiment and feeling.







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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 12/29/2021 2:35:41 PM >

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Post #: 258
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 3:07:08 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - (non) Leningrad Tango

In this sector the German forces are well supplied and can get replenishment.

The whole Leningrad sieging army will cycle rapidly through a stage of refit to spend as much manpower as possible.
Running short of it there BUT in '43 there will be a national morale drop to 65.

So it is better to convert that manpower into soldiers now that they pretty much expeperience up to 70 than to get them later when they're supposedly picked among less qualified human beings to be employed as frontline fighters.

Supposedly replacements are needed elsewhere too but the main difference is that anywhere I've the gimmick of the 'Export Port' I know I can get a good amount of freights. Otherwise I do not know if a 4 Priority depot will get ... enough Freight. Unless I use a Super.Depot but that works well only in the big cities with a huge railyard.

Anyhow there has been a gradual offensive in the East to liberate a railroad.
Admittedly that whole plan has little to no strategic significance and is a 'wrong move' as per I should regiment down some of these divisions and shift some full divisions in other relevant sectors where the Soviets are on the offensive.

But my hope here is to first have the railroad to at least be able to bring freight further east so that I can relieve some of the air supply assets from the duty in this region.

Also the Soviets are still fighting there and that's where their logistics are supposedly poor due to only 1 railtrack and their own air supply is busy into Leningrad.

This turn the Flak gunned down 26 Li-2 in their 2 flights. I believe the Soviets produce 16 a turn (if that has not changed since '41 Start... I checked their production). I believe the loss ratio is far too low to properly cut the supply and I may have to bring the Luftwaffe to do suicidal bombing runs on Leningrad to have their AA and the like waste ammo % and freight that way.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 3:33:59 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Axis Reserves

I admit this may not be AAR relevant but I feel I want to express a thank of gratitude to the OOB designers / scholars for something.

While I may disagree on this or that notion here I noticed something ... motorized divisions that I was entirely unaware of or never heard of.
I took a break from the gaming to check online, and these 2 Motorized Divisions here I never heard of because pretty much got renamed once the 6th Army disappeared in the Stalingrad Cauldron and replaced the 3rd and 29th that ceased to exist.

I remember it was a rather drumming topic in the old WITE1, that the 29th Motorized Division was whisked away from the Ostfront no matter what, because the reconstituted one went to Italy. Non depending if the Germans suffered the debacle or not in the game.

In this case I do feel that it makes way more sense that the Germans get the 'new formations' and if they do not lose the old ones ... all the better.

I may be speaking prematurely here and in a few months I'll have some forced renamed and the like (as I cannot see the renaming and changes of designation schedule, only the coming and going) and I am to eat my word back ... but right now I am pleased to see the extra motorized divisions.

Because a rename would not make sense IF there is on map the 3rd Motorized already for instance. Supposedly the present game mechanics give the German player the choice if to merge these new Motorized units in the barebone reformed ones if that ever happens, or go through a disband and recycle all of the material.

Nonetheless - for now it's a big thumbs up!

___

For what concerns the AAR, since ... oil is a non issue ... there are fair chances these units will get into the Ostfront to stem the ever increasing Soviet armada.

The 25th Panzer was moved away from Norway (We all know the Allies are not going to invade Norway right?) and brought to the Reserve as well. That unit though is combat ready and trained up so can be shipped to the map next turn and arrive on map in 2 turns and on front at the 3rd turn after this.

I've sent some Luftwaffe Feld troops in Norway to replace this.

The 7th Panzer ought to be sent to the West Front or maybe in Afrika or other staggering locations. I've not issued the 10th Panzer in Tunisia and kept it in Russia.

On that notion I am puzzled to understand how the 'ground experience' works in a TB where 'combat happens'. Because in truth there is a 'loss ratio' defined as combat intensity but there are no counterparts fighting with them. And unit morale / experience can be affected by combat and fluctuates.

That is a curiosity to learn though more than something that relevant to focus on. But Morale do impact on the CV of a unit in a TB. Thus on the longer run it may not be that of a curiosity.








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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 3:45:50 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Questing for Morale / Experience in TB

Well ... I started to have a look but I stumbled at first in what may be a problem.

I can definitely see here further notions of a grander plan for a War in Europe or at least some Desert War business...

This Artillery Unit in the North Afrika TB expects to be filled with captured English guns, that are nowhere to be found in the production list I've.
And for obvious reasons I cannot get hands on - as the French / English captured equipment is what it is at the beginning of the campaign (French tanks and some Matildas).

Also from a quite -quick- glance (I've not gone too deep for now) it seems to me that the Morale and thus relative experience of the troops tend to be 'frozen' in the Theather Boxes.
The 21st Panzer is still at its exceptional 90 Morale and Experience that I believe is what it started with (East to check by opening a new campaign) whilst the 15th is at 86.

Thus ideally to issue the 7th Panzer down there would do no good til its has trained up its Morale but can be issued to the West to train up and help the ground %.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 4:13:51 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Maikop Repairs... the ... trick ...

Here we go - it made a jump that is beyond the 1%!

I had to try and tinker and workaround various options.
The 'brute force' of dumping in Maikop 5 Construction units at once has not worked.

So I removed them - then the idea came to bring supplies into it via the ... air! Oh what a novelty.
Yes it works for repairing too.

Apparently 'freight' was needed, stocked there or so.
Since no units are adjacet, some 200ish freight was dumped in Maikop by planes (a bit more but it was taken by the recon squadrons parked there). And it seems now thanks to that Freight that the repairing percentage has been ... making a good and healthy leap forward of I think 6% or so.

That in general is a good notion for repairing anything that gets strat bomber or maybe to accelerate repairs around.
Air-Injection of Freight.
The odd thing that puzzles me is that ... it is connected via the rail.
Why the workers do not get the needed Freight already? I ferry pratically VIA MAIKOP 6k+ a turn down to Tuapse, but the logistic system cannot just divert barely enough to the other rail to Maikop and the mountaineers so that these units are adequately supplied. Even if the depots are level 4.






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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 262
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 4:48:49 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T76 - Logistic Nightmare

Someone already told me I've far too many depots.
I am not sure if that simply 'confuses' the AI (and then to me that's an AI-Logistic management issue).

To me there are not enough tools to do the job. The problem is how to have a good and healthy system that is not a micromanagement nightmare.

Kursk - a lvl 4 Freight Depot?
Intent: The only way I can stock up some local reserve for bigger refits (ie. Panzer Division) is to do it this way.
Need: A function that is a 'Stock up only' or 'Stock up and Spread within Range of X'.
Need: A function that is 'Keep what you have' without gaining more. It can just be a depot type or a specific priority.

In truth there should not be a NEED of such a depot. The system should just understand that if 'THIS UNIT is in REFIT -and- on RAILYARD (or Adjacent)' that unit must try to receive replacements. Without having a need to adjust depot level for the next logistic phase.
Play smart, reduce micromanagement.

Kurks is also an airbase for Air Supply (Which I need to abundantly use as it is known.) thus I must make sure Kursk receives supply.

Any non 4 depot here is entirely redundant and vestuge of past. I may as well 0 them in. As you can see be it a 3 or a 2 they received no freight at all. Thus if I lower Kursk from being a 4, it won't receive Freight at all -AND- immediately give away the freight it stocked.
Suddenly becoming an useless air base for Air Supply purpopses.

That level 2 depot at Mazmyzhi - there are air units there.
The system should just be able to 'grab' the needed Freight as it passes by, no matter what's the depot priority. It's there. A rail station was built specifically FOR the airfield and serve it.
It should not quest for freight from other locations.

Rail passes by? Need Freight. Grab your minimum requirement at least.

But obviously here the freight goes Eastward to Voronhez and then has to travel back via truck westward.

So if I wanted to have freight stop by these airfields, I'd need a Priority 4 Depot in them. But then they'd all compete for Freight at the same level.

Since Kurks is a big city, has railyard and all receveid almost 2000 Freight.
Then we have the frontline depots. That averagely get 200-300 Freight only.

But then I can see at Tuapse, far in the Caucasus (That's the port with the Italians and Romanians), I can rail in 6000 Freight just because I can tag it as 'Mega Prioritized Port'.
Yet my frontline depots anywhere inland grab 300 Freight when much more is needed?
And I am sure a Berlin-Tuapse via Rostov railroad path is longer than Berlin-Voronhez.

I'm also using the FBDs as 'Mini Super Depots' here and there BUT you cannot rely on them. One of them was about where the Soviets are advancing and that specific Railyard 1 Depot gained 4000 Freight for the turn, but as now there is a threat ... the FBD has to move away, because it needs to stay put.

A tool is needed to be able to indicate 'I want lots of Freight here' inland too, not just on the coast.

Supposedly I could -reduce- the number of priority 4 depots. BUT then I've the problem with the air supply bases that have no freight at all.
And the moment I reduce them, I lose my 'stocked up' freight for refits.

The 'Move freight, then it converts to ammo/supply/fuel/replacements' concept is exceptional - but the freight distribution system needs severe rework.

Unless one accepts that it's like having a handful of Priority 4 depots all across the map and trucks covering a grand distance, and that a multi layered depot system with a capillar distribution does not work. (But I am quite confident that was how it was historically - there were plenty of army depots, corps depots, etc).

Now off to dine!

PS: Yes the Hungarian line is weak! But it seems Soviet military efforts are elsewhere so Germans shifted to the hot zone this turn.









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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 12/29/2021 4:49:58 PM >

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Post #: 263
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 7:57:13 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Freight priority and the amount a depot/unit can ask for should be separate settings, and it should be possible to lock depots.

The supply system is so complicated that it calls for bugs and inexplainable behaviour. I hope it will run smoothly at some point.


< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 12/29/2021 7:58:03 PM >

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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 264
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 8:43:57 PM   
battlefield91

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 2/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T76 - Axis Reserves

I admit this may not be AAR relevant but I feel I want to express a thank of gratitude to the OOB designers / scholars for something.

While I may disagree on this or that notion here I noticed something ... motorized divisions that I was entirely unaware of or never heard of.
I took a break from the gaming to check online, and these 2 Motorized Divisions here I never heard of because pretty much got renamed once the 6th Army disappeared in the Stalingrad Cauldron and replaced the 3rd and 29th that ceased to exist.

I remember it was a rather drumming topic in the old WITE1, that the 29th Motorized Division was whisked away from the Ostfront no matter what, because the reconstituted one went to Italy. Non depending if the Germans suffered the debacle or not in the game.

In this case I do feel that it makes way more sense that the Germans get the 'new formations' and if they do not lose the old ones ... all the better.

I may be speaking prematurely here and in a few months I'll have some forced renamed and the like (as I cannot see the renaming and changes of designation schedule, only the coming and going) and I am to eat my word back ... but right now I am pleased to see the extra motorized divisions.

Because a rename would not make sense IF there is on map the 3rd Motorized already for instance. Supposedly the present game mechanics give the German player the choice if to merge these new Motorized units in the barebone reformed ones if that ever happens, or go through a disband and recycle all of the material.

Nonetheless - for now it's a big thumbs up!



The 3rd and 29th motorized Infantry Divisions will automatically "upgrade" to standard non-motorized Infantry Divisions later in January or February 1943. So you only have a few turns to enjoy your two additional motorized Divisions.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 265
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 9:32:02 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		What about making a topic in tech support AlbertN with all of logistics issues, so it might bring some attention from developers (but i believe they are checking AARs also)?

I noticed that when you are using multiple super depots then order in which depot become a super depot really matters.
As first one will get much more freight than a second one. In my GC i had Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk as super depots.
Dnepropetrovsk was getting more freight than Kharkov. I move FBD out of D town and on the next turn back to it. After this manipulation Kharkov was getting more freight.

Probably in a code it just selects first super depot and send maximum freight to it, then second and so on.

(in reply to battlefield91)
Post #: 266
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 10:00:49 PM   
cain012

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/27/2021
Status: offline 		I myself am wondering about the efficacy of this "priority" system, as well as the issues that you have pointed out about units receiving freight from depots that are far away or less well stocked than depots nearest.

Perhaps a tiny bit more rational control of the supply flow would help matters? I for one wonder why we can't set which depot a division draws supply from. Also why, since there is a total amount of freight available in any case, we cannot say specifically how much freight we want to go where. If you wanted to make absolutely sure a certain sector got the supplies it needed you could say so, otherwise it can do its automatic distribution from the total available freight -- similar to "auto-escorts" used in the air war. I can granularly go down into the smallest air groups and assign them directly to air missions, and the game knows if they can even accomplish this mission from where they are...would something similar for the supply system help?

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 267
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/29/2021 11:03:08 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I've sent the turn after I ended up frustrated in some logistical studies - and I deliberated to steal more air transports by the Italian front instead.

I am very sorry to hear of the 3rd and 29th Motorized division business then ... I do understand with the 'oil business' non existant it is a measure to be taken. I hope for a War in Europe though that the Axis can shape their own formations and eventually upgrade / downgrade to motorized formations infantry ones and vice versa.

For what concerns the logistic issues, I've already opened up a thread and pretty much I got an answer that the system is complicated and convulted - I do not believe WITE2 will have a reviewed or built-from-stratch logistic system; but if there are sequels or maybe a paid expansion to it, then yes it is possible. My own gut vibe there though.

(in reply to battlefield91)
Post #: 268
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/30/2021 1:04:50 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T77 - Russian Action

MSAG continues his relentless advance by hammering German forces.

The losses may seem massive for the Russians in comparison but do not be fooled. A single defeat hammers the Germans as well.
Look at the map. The 'Luftlande' stack that was worthy 347 pre-combat (So roughly 17 total double up once by the single fort), is worth 8 now.

That means that between fatigue, damaged elements and whatnot it has lost 50% of its combat efficiency if not even more.

Worse, the Soviets are branching north toward the pretty weak Hungarian sector.

I feel that for the '42, in absence of 'strategical errors' like Stalingrad flanks defended exclusively by Axis minors the Soviets are playing wisely, netting more and more victories to augment their Guard units without losing units themselves.

If the question is 'why' the Germans are fighting there, it's because behind that there is not exactly any defensive line that is better. It is all a matter of plain hexes and frozen rivers pretty much.




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Post #: 269
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/30/2021 1:09:04 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T77 - Tambov sector

Here - where I expected the Soviets to keep pushing - they did not this turn.

Their mighty guard corps took a step back - to either rest and rebuild CCP - and all the while I gained a screening force of weak divisions.

The question here is if to attack these divisions left here as bait - it will halve my CCPs and spend movement and gain fatigue on my own elements to inflict some losses...
Alternatively I can stay put and keep digging as now I am enabled to dig beyond the Lvl 1 fort as I got enemy hexes adjacent here and there.

On the other hand to inflict some losses to weak Soviet formations in the open ... it is also a temptation.
But wisdom suggests to stay put. Especially as a bucket of Tanks will just damage themselves by moving around if I use the Panzers to gain them experience...

And I am skeptical of the influence of experience on the combats.




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