Machinegun vs. Infantry

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Machinegun vs. Infantry - 12/31/2021 3:07:07 AM

mroyer

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General question: Do you ever build infantry?

In the games I've played, it seems that MG have been very slightly more costly than regular infantry, while having roughly the same offensive punch, same hit points, but far superior defensive capability.

Are there reasons to build infantry?

-Mark R.

Post #: 1

RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 12/31/2021 6:03:52 AM

KingHalford

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Yes. MG Infantry suffer an additional 50% attack penalty over regular Infantry, and so are completely unsuited to offensive roles. Light Infantry brigades are significantly more effective on the attack as a result, but they're usually going to be needing to hold ground too, and so those 200 MG can make a real difference, when you might not really need those extra 200 regulars on the offensive. If anybody is going to die when Infantry are on the assault, if you bet on the MG Infantry models, you'd be right about 75% of the time, in my experience. They die very easily, so on maps with population issues, I consider Light Infantry formations more effective for general use because they tend to suffer less losses if you're playing aggressively.

If you've got a good Infantry model, and you're not expecting very heavy resistance, then Light Infantry is a perfectly good choice, as the extra defence you get with MG Infantry might not be necessary.

Generally speaking, I mostly use MG Infantry as I feel they're better at what general infantry models are there to do: hold ground, particularly in rough terrain. Properly supported though, Light Infantry will do most of the same job. I will usually have a few Light Infantry Brigades/Corps/Armies scattered in amongst the rest to do the offensive actions, particular on maps where tanks are either unviable because of terrain, or because there are no resources to build them. On a world with varied terrain and reasonable amounts of metal, at minimum 75% of my forces will be an Infantryman of some kind.

There are no redundant models in Shadow Empire in my opinion, not once you really learn how the combat mechanics work. Each one of them is a tool and has it's place.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 12/31/2021 6:13:21 AM >

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 12/31/2021 6:29:47 AM

mattpilot

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I wish this game had a window like Advanced Tactics Gold has where it shows all the stats and modifiers for a unit in one place.

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 12/31/2021 11:04:10 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

General question: Do you ever build infantry?

In the games I've played, it seems that MG have been very slightly more costly than regular infantry, while having roughly the same offensive punch, same hit points, but far superior defensive capability.

Are there reasons to build infantry?

-Mark R.

The purpose of Infantry is to be the cheap masses.
Even a little price increase means a lot if you consider that you the smalest Formation is already 55 subunits.
Also consider the Ammo consumption on top of it, where MG are usually 3 times as bad.
And if you have even remotely rough terrain, entrenchnment can get infantry very far.

With teh combat value, consider that MG is only better in Soft Defense. MG has roughly twice the firepower of comparable tier Small Arms - but suffers a -50% for all but defense. So realy it only has higher firepower in defense.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 12/31/2021 11:07:18 AM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 12/31/2021 7:35:05 PM

mroyer

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Joined: 3/6/2016
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quote:

MG Infantry suffer an additional 50% attack penalty over regular Infantry

That is perfect, but I can't find evidence of that penalty being applied. Where does it show up?
Trying to find it, I loaded an old save-file and executed a non-sense attack that included both MG and regular infantry (see example round of combat in the image below). It doesn't appear that the 50% penalty is applied at this point - indeed, it looks as if the MG attack with their full strength.

quote:

Also consider the Ammo consumption on top of it, where MG are usually 3 times as bad.

Excellent point - I hadn't considered that the MG are chewing through ammo at two to three times the rate as infantry.

-Mark R.

< Message edited by mroyer -- 12/31/2021 7:36:12 PM >

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 1/1/2022 2:26:46 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

That is perfect, but I can't find evidence of that penalty being applied. Where does it show up?

It is already figured into the Soft/Hard attack/defense values of the Model.
You can see it in the model details.

See 5.12.3.7. oPeratIonal stats

All Combat values start at:
Weapon base Firepower (as seen in the design selection) * Weapon Design Roll / 100

1. Small Arms have Hard Attack and Hard Defense divided by 2
2. "Soldiers on Foot without Ranged attack" (not artillery or AA) have their Soft Attack and Hard Attack divided by 2
3. MG have every value except soft Defense divided by 2

1+2 apply to both
3 only applies to MG. But it realy only offsets MG of hte same tier having ~2 times the base firepower (consuming it for everything but soft defense).

The same MG on a Buggy has somewhat different modifiers (counts as tanks instead of foot, but 1+3 still appy).

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/1/2022 2:30:24 AM >

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 1/1/2022 3:05:44 PM

KingHalford

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Early on, Motorbikes are a good attacking infantry type, as they suffer none of the soft/hard attack penalties that the other models do. Not only are they great for recon but they'll perform well if supported properly. Later, Jetpacks do that, but unfortunately they're not able to equip battledress.

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 1/10/2022 8:04:19 PM

ShadowVillage

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

There are no redundant models in Shadow Empire in my opinion, not once you really learn how the combat mechanics work. Each one of them is a tool and has it's place.

I wish I could figure out how to properly use anti-tank guns.

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 1/10/2022 9:08:26 PM

mattpilot

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quote:

I wish I could figure out how to properly use anti-tank guns.

I usually add them to a Heavy MG infantry formation - since its all defensive focused. Stopped "Panzerland" in it's tracks :-)

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 1/22/2022 7:28:00 PM

pbi298

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MG Infantry brigades form the bulk of my army. Infantry formations are the jack-of-all-trades formations, meant to take ground, hold ground, act as garrisons, etc, at a reasonable cost. They get aided by armour and artillery, but for the cost, infantry will normally provide the bulk of any fighting force. The only time I go with an all-MG Infantry force is for my permanent garrison units - their primary purpose is to defend key points (like cities), so I don't mind losing the flexibility that infantry troopers gets me in that case.

I find that if I go with Infantry-model only formations, they fare less well than the mixed Infantry/MG Infantry. I usually add anti-tank and assault guns to my infantry formations to increase the formation's anti-armour defence as well as provide an organic offensive boost.

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RE: Machinegun vs. Infantry - 1/22/2022 8:36:54 PM

pbi298

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For AT guns, I add them to all my infantry units. If I need to operate in mountain terrain, I make sure to leave the infantry non-motorized so they can take their AT guns with them up into the hills :)

< Message edited by pbi298 -- 1/22/2022 8:37:22 PM >

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Post #: 11