Recon points of recon units

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Recon points of recon units - 11/27/2021 9:40:21 AM

Krupinski

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As i understand you check the recon points of a unit only on the individual equipment stats.

I was just wondering why my recon-vehicles like Sdkfz222 only have one point.

So what is the advantage of my recon units/battalions?

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RE: Recon points of recon units - 11/27/2021 9:51:27 AM

JacquesDeLalaing

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I was wondering about that too, but I think that even with just 1 recon point per individual, recon units can be helpfull:

1. They can move very flexibly. Most recon units are completely tracked (remember that "4x4 wheel" counts as "tracked"!). This gives recon units a pretty good off-road capability. Note that units move with the speed of their slowest (non-transported) unit! Units that are completely tracked move faster off road (and particularly up and down hill) than units that contain one or more wheeled individual. Also, their fuel consumption is quite low (which also means the fuel re-supply won't clog your roads that much).
2. Usually, you want your combat units entrenched and ready. If you move combat units around for recon purposes, they lose all their entrenchment and they lose readiness (and fuel). So you need other units to do the recon.
3. Guinea pigs: If I have to cross an open plain and I don't know if the opponent is watching (waiting for intercept fire), I first send in my recon unit. It's better to lose a recon unit than a combat unit. If the recon unit is armored and the follow up combat units are not, you should get away with less punishment. Also, I sometimes use them to probe enemy positions (to gain recon for my arty). And of course you could also try to use them defensively to screen your own units (for a secret buildup! ;) ) or get them into positions where they can spot for your arty intercept fire (haven't tested that; probably only works if you're playing US, I suppose).
4. Any counter on the map exerts a Zone of Control (+10 AP for enemy movements). So it's good to have more counters for maximum annoyance.

So for me it's not so much "How are they objectively better suited for the recon job?" but more "They do the recon job so that my combat units don't need to".

< Message edited by JacquesDeLalaing -- 11/28/2021 4:09:27 PM >

(in reply to Krupinski)

Post #: 2

RE: Recon points of recon units - 11/27/2021 2:19:08 PM

Jagger2002

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I have been wondering if doctrine is modeled within the game and I suspect it isn't. For example, a recon unit is trained and equipped to perform the recon mission at a high level. A level greater than other types of units. A recon unit should be more effective in producing recon results than other types of units.

And then there is national tactical doctrines. For example, the American, Brits, Canadians, etc. had an infantry doctrine heavily reliant on artillery and immediate armor firepower which produced a predictable attack sequence. The Germans also utilized artillery and armor but had a much more flexible infiltration style of attack which typically was more effective than the allies style of attack. Often discipline was tighter and leadership emphasized at lower levels in motivated and well trained German units vs allied units. Basically national doctrine produced more effective German infantry formations vs Allied infantry formations even when at equal levels of training, motivation and experience. And the differences between German and Russian national doctrine would be even greater. I have been curious whether that is modeled or not.

(in reply to JacquesDeLalaing)

Post #: 3

RE: Recon points of recon units - 11/27/2021 2:31:09 PM

JacquesDeLalaing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

I have been wondering if doctrine is modeled within the game and I suspect it isn't. For example, a recon unit is trained and equipped to perform the recon mission at a high level. A level greater than other types of units. A recon unit should be more effective in producing recon results than other types of units.

And then there is national tactical doctrines. For example, the American, Brits, Canadians, etc. had an infantry doctrine heavily reliant on artillery and immediate armor firepower which produced a predictable attack sequence. The Germans also utilized artillery and armor but had a much more flexible infiltration style of attack which typically was more effective than the allies style of attack. Often discipline was tighter and leadership emphasized at lower levels in motivated and well trained German units vs allied units. Basically national doctrine produced more effective German infantry formations vs Allied infantry formations even when at equal levels of training, motivation and experience. And the differences between German and Russian national doctrine would be even greater. I have been curious whether that is modeled or not.

On topic, I'd say that one would need to consider the scale of the game. This is a game set on a larger tactical scale, not quite on an operational or even strategical scale. So I'm not sure how one should model the "higher level recon" in the game?

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Post #: 4

RE: Recon points of recon units - 11/27/2021 2:53:50 PM

Jagger2002

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I remember reading a recce manual some time back. IIRC, it was a Soviet cold war manual. Recce is a lot more than driving down the road until somebody shoots at you. It was more like a Sherlock Holmes observation of clues. Deducing locations and then careful observation and/or investigation. They were also equipped specifically for the recce mission with the sighting and radio equipment necessary to do the job effectively and pass along information quickly. Undoubtedly there would be a variety of methods to model greater recce effectiveness. Maybe a base level increase in recce points for tagged recce units correlated with experience and motivation. Or maybe, when using the recce card on a recce unit gives better results. Couple thoughts off the top of my head and I am sure there are probably more inspired ideas out there as well.

IMO, recce is modeled at this games level which I consider operational. So certainly appropriate to consider variations in recce capability.

One other point I noticed related to recce is the lack of a foggy weather condition within game. Light precipitation seems the closest.

< Message edited by Jagger2002 -- 11/27/2021 2:58:32 PM >

(in reply to JacquesDeLalaing)

Post #: 5

RE: Recon points of recon units - 11/27/2021 4:05:33 PM

Oberst_Klink

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A good publication about the evolution of reece units.

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/scouts_out.pdf

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Recon points of recon units - 11/29/2021 8:05:23 AM

Vic

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I am going to allow setting different recon points per trooptype in an upcoming version of DC:Ardennes. Thanks for the feedback.

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RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/12/2022 8:43:23 AM

JacquesDeLalaing

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Armored car elements now have 6 recon points! (ordinary elements just 1 recon point)
:)

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RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/12/2022 10:18:49 AM

nikdav

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With last beta 1.01.01, armored cars 11 recon points !

" Recon value +10 for Armored Cars, +5 for Greif Jeep, BMW75, Sdkfz250; "

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Post #: 9

RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/12/2022 3:15:03 PM

Oberst_Klink

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikdav

With last beta 1.01.01, armored cars 11 recon points !

" Recon value +10 for Armored Cars, +5 for Greif Jeep, BMW75, Sdkfz250; "

OT Davide, but I noticed the lack of Pioniere for various units in Wacht am Rhein. I am playing through the whole campaign as part of military history session(s) after duty with my comrades of the Reserves (Yes, we are still @ covid19 support). 352VGD and the Panzer units of 5th Army are without any engineering units.

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/12/2022 4:05:30 PM

nikdav

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The Pz.Div. must have the new Pz.Pioniere units !
The 352. Pioniere fixed next version !

Davide

< Message edited by nikdav -- 1/14/2022 4:28:14 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/13/2022 5:23:22 AM

meyer2_slith

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Hi All, I'm a bit late to this recon party, but I just want to ask a question. Was the art of "recon" in WW2 as well established and as indoctrinated as it came to be during the Cold War and to the present day?
I've played all of Vic's games and think that he gets the FOW aspects quite right. Mind you, this new grand tactical scale may or may not require certain game mechanic adjustments. I'm not sure if recon is one of them. In most WW2 tactical accounts that I've read it's always par for the course that the combatants really have no idea of what they're up against when first confronting an enemy unit in a particular location, barring a vague idea. Time and blood will reveal the hidden treasures. I guess I play for the realism aspect so I don't want to know too much about my enemy at first.
Anyway I haven't played v1.01.00 yet so I should shut up lest I end up with egg on my face.
Cheers All!

(in reply to nikdav)

Post #: 12

RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/13/2022 2:31:35 PM

Jagger2002

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quote:

Hi All, I'm a bit late to this recon party, but I just want to ask a question. Was the art of "recon" in WW2 as well established and as indoctrinated as it came to be during the Cold War and to the present day?

I doubt it but undoubtedly pure WW2 recce units were trained in the art of recon and equipped to perform the task but probably not at the level of modern recce units. Actually in Ardennes game terms, I have the feeling the recce bump for pure recce units might be a little less effective than historical. I suspect it has to do with not having separate models specifically for recce units. If you bump recce now, I think it improves recce for all unit types using recce vehicles regardless of whether they are representative of true recce units or not. So basically can't improve recce values too much.

(in reply to meyer2_slith)

Post #: 13

RE: Recon points of recon units - 1/13/2022 2:32:26 PM

Jagger2002

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Double post removed.

< Message edited by Jagger2002 -- 1/13/2022 2:34:13 PM >

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Post #: 14