Logistics Refocusing

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Logistics Refocusing - 1/12/2022 1:39:35 PM

Atlas888

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I just skipped over rail stations and went straight to HS Rail Station. Is the optimal layout that i put a HS Rail Station 1 hex outside of every city (except my SHQ) and then use traffic signs to inject it into the main artery? So my Truck Stations III/IV are in all my cities but the HS Rail Stations are 1 hex out?

Thanks!

Post #: 1

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/12/2022 1:43:55 PM

zgrssd

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I think usually people put the stations into the city, but let the rail go past the city. With a traffic sign blocking everything except pull points.

(in reply to Atlas888)

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RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/12/2022 5:23:38 PM

Atlas888

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To be honest...i just dont understand Refocusing and how to design to overcome it. Its so frustrating that i feel compelled to play on 'easy logistics' just to account for the fact that i cant figure out how it works...

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Post #: 3

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/12/2022 11:06:06 PM

mroyer

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I don't understand the design intent of refocusing. What is it suppose to simulate? Traffic jams?

-Mark R.

(in reply to Atlas888)

Post #: 4

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/13/2022 10:55:14 AM

Voker57

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

I don't understand the design intent of refocusing. What is it suppose to simulate? Traffic jams?

-Mark R.

Resource loss when refueling/reloading/etc on far away stations and balances the AP refreshment. Otherwise you could build only one LP-producing asset ever at the capital and build only AP-refreshers elsewhere.

(in reply to mroyer)

Post #: 5

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/13/2022 2:23:38 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Atlas888

To be honest...i just dont understand Refocusing and how to design to overcome it. Its so frustrating that i feel compelled to play on 'easy logistics' just to account for the fact that i cant figure out how it works...

How is it "frustrating"?
If you keep it to a sensible 1/city, it will only ever be a advantage as far as range is concerned.
All it will ever do is expand your range.

How many Logistics Producers do you have per city?
Why do you think having that many is somehow better?
I mean I remember there used to be a mistake with the math where Logistics assets did not produce as good or better then earlier Tiers, but afaik this was fixed a while ago.

(in reply to Atlas888)

Post #: 6

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/14/2022 10:16:59 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
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quote:

If you keep it to a sensible 1/city, it will only ever be a advantage as far as range is concerned.
All it will ever do is expand your range.

I have some questions about that. I'm not trying to be contentious. I am trying to make sure I understand how things work. I have read your tutorials (and probably need to read them again). In the past I have tried to play the game without injection and occasionally found myself with logistics difficulties near my SHQ.

Your statement (especially the second sentence) has thrown my tenuous understanding into a tailspin.

I have two specific questions that I hope you can answer with certainty as it will help me be sure I understand things.

Question 1

Situation:

Three cities (A, B, and C)

City A has a SHQ.

City A has a Level 1 Truck Station

City B has a Level 1 Truck Station

A road goes from City A to City B and continues to City C.

The distance between cities A & B is such that there is no deterioration of Logistics Points due to distance.

The distance between cities A & B is such that there is no deterioration of Logistics Points due to distance.

The distance between cities A & C is such that all Logistics Points deteriorate (i.e. go to zero) before reaching City C.

If I understand this correctly:
the total logistics points on all hexes between cities A & B (including the city hexes) will be 2000.
the total logistics points on the hexes between cities B & C (including City C but not City B) will be 1750 (1000 from City B and 750 refocused from City A).

Is this what you would expect?

Question 2

Situation:

Only one city in the area.

The city has a SHQ.

The city has a Level 1 Truck Station.

A road to the front crosses difficult terrain or is long. Either way, for whatever reason, I have decided not to place a city there.

I need to get 950 weight of supplies to the front.

In the last hex before reduction of logistics points due to AP running out, there is a Supply Depot on the road.

The distance from the city to the front is long enough (due to terrain penalties) that the logistics points run out before reaching the front.

My choices are:
1) to place another Truck Station on the road past the Supply Depot in the last hex before the logistics points deteriorate.
2) to place another Truck Station 'injecting' into the road on the 2nd to last hex before the logistics points deteriorate.

In choice 1, I would expect there to be 750 logistics points in the hex past the second truck station (1000 - 25% refocusing).

In choice 2, I would expect there to be 1000+ logistics points (which deteriorates as you go down the road) on the hex past the point where the injection occurs.

Is this what you would expect?

Also, will the 950 weight of supplies get through to the front in both cases?

I thank you in advance for whatever time and effort you spend in answering this. Don't go to the trouble of setting it up in a game to see. If it comes to that, I can make that effort. I am just hoping you know off the top of your head.

_____________________________

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Post #: 7

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/15/2022 1:57:01 AM

zgrssd

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If a "Supply Runner" - that is a term Vic used in the patchnotes - hits a logistics producing asset of it's type, it get's refocussed:
The AP are reset. However a percentage of the capacity is lost.
This loss is both a fixed amount and based on AP used. And on top of any capacity loss from exceeding AP.

Question 1:
The answer is yes to both questions

Question 2:
Supply Depots as a mechanic predate refocussing by a few months. And do not use that mechanic.
Instead they recover some of the used AP. However, each supply runner tracks how much it got back from Supply Depots so they can not extend it indefinitely. Eventually you have to refocus.

However idealy, you should stop using truck stations for this.
At the point where a supply depot is even considered to extend ranges, you realy should be using trains.
Trains can be efficient, even if they have to go a much longer route around hard terrain.
Neither in workers, fuel nor Admin Strain will a Truck station/supply deplot chain work, where a train should be.

I try to use trucks only for "local distribution". The city, the assets around the city and any troops around the city. Or the area around a train station (if you had to place it in the wild).
Trucks also making a connections to other cities is completely coincidental and not something I can rely upon either way.

Note that while the game enforces a rule that every asset must be connected to a SHQ via roads, no actual logistics need to flow over the road. In fact, the road could go through enemy terrain.
Even without a (working) endstation, the lower 10% of Rail Logistics always reach assets on the rails. So a rail network can bootstrap far away stations.

Also if you do place truck stops or rail stations in the middle of nowhere, try to do it directly on free folk town. I heard that if you colonize over a free folk town, you absorb the entire towns population into the city instantly.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/15/2022 1:58:35 AM >

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 8

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/15/2022 2:22:34 AM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
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From: Paducah, Kentucky
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Thank you for the answers. I certainly appreciate you reading through the long questions.

I think am having trouble asking the right question or, at least, asking it in the right way.

Be assured, I do use trains as soon as I can research/afford them. I used 'trucks' to form my questions so as not to confuse the issue too much.

The problem is that there seems to be a 'window' in my gameplay where I don't have trains yet but need to stretch some supply lines (sometimes to get to resources needed to build the trains). I start at the lowest tech level with only one zone. I play with normal research speed but some game starts make it difficult to get so much researched before the computer opponents start knocking at my door. When the opportunity arises, I try to 'defend' by crushing them and taking their city (if they have one). When there are mountains or other rough terrain, sometimes the truck lines get a little long. This problem can usually be solved by 'building more' but I am looking for the cleanest and most efficient solution - especially if it creates assets that may need to be mothballed later.

Question 2 was not about refocusing at a supply depot. It was about what happens at the truck station beyond the supply depot and if 'injection' there will allow the supplies to flow all the way to the destination.

The term 'Supply Runner' is a good term to help me rephrase the question.

Can a 'Supply Runner' get extra distance from an injection rather than actually travelling through the station and being refocused. Also, can a 'Supply Runner' (for lack of a better phrase) 'hand off' the supplies to another 'supply runner' and are there restrictions such as 'it must be at a depot, railhead, or station'.

Again I thank you. Without you and others who take the time to explain, I might have thrown up my hands in despair on this and some other issues.

Sincerely

< Message edited by SamuraiProgrmmr -- 1/15/2022 2:24:03 AM >

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

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RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/15/2022 11:07:23 AM

InfoBit

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Wow thanks for asking these questions and for the answers! I'm learning so much with this discussion!

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Post #: 10

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/15/2022 2:10:00 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
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From: Paducah, Kentucky
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Infobit,

I want to make sure that you understand that what zgrssd said about using rail is absolutely correct. The situation I set up in my second question (and my reply) is a bit contrived to try to understand a specific thing. However, it is unlikely that it is a crucial point because, as zgrssd said, you can pull points off of rail even without a railhead or station nearby.

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

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Post #: 11

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/16/2022 10:32:42 AM

zgrssd

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Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

I start at the lowest tech level with only one zone.

I consider starting with the lowest techlevel a hardmode.
If you are still having issues learning the game, you realy should not be adding more issues by starting with such a low TL.

quote:

When there are mountains or other rough terrain, sometimes the truck lines get a little long. This problem can usually be solved by 'building more' but I am looking for the cleanest and most efficient solution - especially if it creates assets that may need to be mothballed later.

If there is not other way, you can run the supply line through mountains, over dirt roads. If you have to build something in hard terran, dirt roads are the most affordable.
But if you have to do that, you propably need a few levels of truckstation in the middle just to make sure it runs smooth.

Another option is to make a second SHQ. If you could get at least food produced on the "right" side of hte mountains or gap, that is quite a bit of logistics worry less.
However, you will propably have to manually transfer ammo, IP, Metals and hte like to the 2nd SHQ. Which is a lot of extra work, and why I generally advise against it.

quote:

Question 2 was not about refocusing at a supply depot. It was about what happens at the truck station beyond the supply depot and if 'injection' there will allow the supplies to flow all the way to the destination.

I am not sure I quite understand the question.
The supply depot will affect each supply runner seperately. So it does not mater if the runner was already refocussed.

quote:

Can a 'Supply Runner' get extra distance from an injection rather than actually travelling through the station and being refocused. Also, can a 'Supply Runner' (for lack of a better phrase) 'hand off' the supplies to another 'supply runner' and are there restrictions such as 'it must be at a depot, railhead, or station'.

Each station makes their own supply runners, sending them in any diection they can travel.

I am not quite sure I udnerstand what you mean with supply runners "dropping off" stuff?

During the logistics step, the game just sums up how many Truck and Rail Logistics each and every Road and Rail Hex has (using the previous turns production figures). That is what the Initial Logistics View shows you.

When it comes to actually delivering stuff, the game just substracts the logistics capacity used for every single unit of material, from every single hex between the source and the target. The Bottleneck display just shows you how much of hte points for each Hex were used.

I think it preferse Rail Points over Truckpoints. And Truckpoints over Airbridges.

I fear at this point we need some practical examples for the issues. Ideally savegames, if you have a 3rd party place to upload them to (as the forum can handle neither the extension, nor the filesizes).

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 12

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/16/2022 10:33:19 AM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

I start at the lowest tech level with only one zone.

I consider starting with the lowest techlevel a hardmode.
If you are still having issues learning the game, you realy should not be adding more issues by starting with such a low TL.

quote:

When there are mountains or other rough terrain, sometimes the truck lines get a little long. This problem can usually be solved by 'building more' but I am looking for the cleanest and most efficient solution - especially if it creates assets that may need to be mothballed later.

quote:

Question 2 was not about refocusing at a supply depot. It was about what happens at the truck station beyond the supply depot and if 'injection' there will allow the supplies to flow all the way to the destination.

I am not sure I quite understand the question.
The supply depot will affect each supply runner seperately. So it does not mater if the runner was already refocussed.

quote:

Can a 'Supply Runner' get extra distance from an injection rather than actually travelling through the station and being refocused. Also, can a 'Supply Runner' (for lack of a better phrase) 'hand off' the supplies to another 'supply runner' and are there restrictions such as 'it must be at a depot, railhead, or station'.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 13

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/16/2022 10:34:11 AM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

I start at the lowest tech level with only one zone.

I consider starting with the lowest techlevel a hardmode.
If you are still having issues learning the game, you realy should not be adding more issues by starting with such a low TL.

quote:

When there are mountains or other rough terrain, sometimes the truck lines get a little long. This problem can usually be solved by 'building more' but I am looking for the cleanest and most efficient solution - especially if it creates assets that may need to be mothballed later.

quote:

Question 2 was not about refocusing at a supply depot. It was about what happens at the truck station beyond the supply depot and if 'injection' there will allow the supplies to flow all the way to the destination.

I am not sure I quite understand the question.
The supply depot will affect each supply runner seperately. So it does not mater if the runner was already refocussed.

quote:

Can a 'Supply Runner' get extra distance from an injection rather than actually travelling through the station and being refocused. Also, can a 'Supply Runner' (for lack of a better phrase) 'hand off' the supplies to another 'supply runner' and are there restrictions such as 'it must be at a depot, railhead, or station'.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 14

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/16/2022 10:35:06 AM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

I start at the lowest tech level with only one zone.

I consider starting with the lowest techlevel a hardmode.
If you are still having issues learning the game, you realy should not be adding more issues by starting with such a low TL.

quote:

When there are mountains or other rough terrain, sometimes the truck lines get a little long. This problem can usually be solved by 'building more' but I am looking for the cleanest and most efficient solution - especially if it creates assets that may need to be mothballed later.

quote:

Question 2 was not about refocusing at a supply depot. It was about what happens at the truck station beyond the supply depot and if 'injection' there will allow the supplies to flow all the way to the destination.

I am not sure I quite understand the question.
The supply depot will affect each supply runner seperately. So it does not mater if the runner was already refocussed.

quote:

Can a 'Supply Runner' get extra distance from an injection rather than actually travelling through the station and being refocused. Also, can a 'Supply Runner' (for lack of a better phrase) 'hand off' the supplies to another 'supply runner' and are there restrictions such as 'it must be at a depot, railhead, or station'.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 15

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/16/2022 1:37:28 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

I consider starting with the lowest techlevel a hardmode.
If you are still having issues learning the game, you realy should not be adding more issues by starting with such a low TL.

I would not say that I am having 'issues' learning the game. I am (quoting my last post)

quote:

I am looking for the cleanest and most efficient solution

To be sure, I was having some difficulties when I started a few months ago. Seeing the frequency of questions about logistics on the discord channel, I am not the only one. :)

What is happening is that I am having success at managing my logistics, but I understand that I am unsure about what is 'really happening' under the hood with logistics injection. My first handful of games ended with one common theme...an 'a-ha' moment of 'So THAT's how it works' and a realization that I had incorrect expectations on how something behaved.

Before I consider delving into multiplayer, I want to get this nagging doubt satisfied. Thus the detailed convoluted questions. I am probably making a mountain out of a molehill on this one nagging doubt.

quote:

I am not quite sure I udnerstand what you mean with supply runners "dropping off" stuff?

Yes, I am having some trouble expressing what I am thinking in a clear manner. I apologize for that and appreciate your willingness to engage.

quote:

When it comes to actually delivering stuff, the game just substracts the logistics capacity used for every single unit of material, from every single hex between the source and the target.

Believe it or not, I think that answers my question.

quote:

I fear at this point we need some practical examples for the issues. Ideally savegames, if you have a 3rd party place to upload them to (as the forum can handle neither the extension, nor the filesizes).

Yes, I fear that is true. However, the question was hypothetically constructed to pinpoint the thing I was unsure about. Your remarks above about subtracting the logistics capacity confirms what I had hoped was the case.

Again, thank you for your effort.

I have a semi-related question to ask.

In the following picture, I am trying to click on the 'Preview Asset Log' button on the Traffic Signs pop-up window.

Do you know where I should go to 'select a specific Asset'?

Thanks again!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

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Post #: 16

RE: Logistics Refocusing - 1/17/2022 9:30:11 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

Yes, I fear that is true. However, the question was hypothetically constructed to pinpoint the thing I was unsure about. Your remarks above about subtracting the logistics capacity confirms what I had hoped was the case.

Again, thank you for your effort.

I have a semi-related question to ask.

In the following picture, I am trying to click on the 'Preview Asset Log' button on the Traffic Signs pop-up window.

Do you know where I should go to 'select a specific Asset'?

Thanks again!

I honestly have no idea how to do that.
I never even considered Logistics on a per-asset level. I only ever go for the large scale.

I would guess that only works if you use the traffic sign tool on a hex that has assets?

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 17