Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

Things are going swimmingly here, apparently.

I vaguely recall making a comment years ago noting the civil and relatively sophisticated behavior of the forum members here, compared to other strategy and gaming rooms. There were spirited disagreements from which came no resolution, compromise, etc. Eventually the parties involved simply agreed to disagree, and moved on with some humor and a change of subject, and that was it.

There was also an air of self-reliance regarding finding answers to questions. Someone asks a question and they're either given an answer or pointed to where they can find the answer. In the latter case that person should then be able to look for and discover the answer for themselves, learning a lot more than they initially bargained for in the process. But responding with the notion that their question instead be answered then and there, simply because they asked it, is annoying. I agree that Alfred could be coarse at times but I always valued his knowledge - though by no means is he the only knowledgeable person in the forums - and whatever objective response you got from him was solid.

I don't know that I'm making a point here. I guess I'm trying so say that I don't want to see this forum descend into the politically correct stupidity we see poisoning our society. Blatantly insulting and deliberately demeaning behavior should not be tolerated. Obviously. But we're all adults here and I think we can handle ourselves in frank discussions over controversial topics, without community enforcement guidelines enabling someone to clamp down on the community because they personally didn't like what was said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

Things are going swimmingly here, apparently.

I vaguely recall making a comment years ago noting the civil and relatively sophisticated behavior of the forum members here, compared to other strategy and gaming rooms. There were spirited disagreements from which came no resolution, compromise, etc. Eventually the parties involved simply agreed to disagree, and moved on with some humor and a change of subject, and that was it.

There was also an air of self-reliance regarding finding answers to questions. Someone asks a question and they're either given an answer or pointed to where they can find the answer. In the latter case that person should then be able to look for and discover the answer for themselves, learning a lot more than they initially bargained for in the process. But responding with the notion that their question instead be answered then and there, simply because they asked it, is annoying. I agree that Alfred could be coarse at times but I always valued his knowledge - though by no means is he the only knowledgeable person in the forums - and whatever objective response you got from him was solid.

I don't know that I'm making a point here. I guess I'm trying so say that I don't want to see this forum descend into the politically correct stupidity we see poisoning our society. Blatantly insulting and deliberately demeaning behavior should not be tolerated. Obviously. But we're all adults here and I think we can handle ourselves in frank discussions over controversial topics, without community enforcement guidelines enabling someone to clamp down on the community because they personally didn't like what was said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

Then too think, if only, back before this started, the rules-infringing image of a vagina-fruit was removed and a warning was left on that 'now gone' topic too keep it civil, most, if not all, of this drama could have been avoided.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

..
There was nothing uncivil about the picture, there was nothing uncivil about the pin-up art. There was nothing uncivil about the depiction of 'Kali'. Its not about civility, but it is about the changing times that we live in and Matrix decision to adopt the Derby House Principles.
..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It won't just be without Alfred.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

Then too think, if only, back before this started, the rules-infringing image of a vagina-fruit was removed and a warning was left on that 'now gone' topic too keep it civil, most, if not all, of this drama could have been avoided.

warspite1

But that suggests that all, or indeed most, of 'this' has happened because of one image. That is not the case. There are a number of strands to all of this.

There was nothing uncivil about the picture, there was nothing uncivil about the pin-up art. There was nothing uncivil about the depiction of 'Kali'. Its not about civility, but it is about the changing times that we live in and Matrix decision to adopt the Derby House Principles.

Australian Beauties (in the GD forum) and Things to Ponder (in this) fell foul, in Matrix eyes, of what the Derby House Principles are trying to achieve.

We may agree with these principles, disagree or shades in between, but Matrix have made their decision, and we have a choice as to whether we respect that decision and go along with it or not (in which case, like DD696 we leave).

The question of civility or otherwise comes with the banning of an individual and has been discussed heavily over the last few days (so I'm not adding anymore to that). We will have an answer from Erik soon on whether he will 'cut the Gordion Knot' as has been suggested or not. But whatever decision is taken, hopefully that will be the last word on that and as others have said, we can then all move on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

What? Scratching my head on this exchange. I did not see any one calling someone “stupid” maybe I missed something, I don’t get it.

But I am just a DAT so what do I know lol.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

What? Scratching my head on this exchange. I did not see any one calling someone “stupid” maybe I missed something, I don’t get it.

But I am just a DAT so what do I know lol.

warspite1

Very simple:

I asked Trugrit a question.

Ian R decided he didn't like the manner of the question and that I was gaslighting and 'imposing' my view (see post 181)

I said I thought that was nonsense. I can't see how I was imposing a view by asking a question, nor do I really understand the reference to gaslighting.

Now Ian R has decided that I am repeating myself, even though I was simply giving my opinion on a comment by tolsdorff.

I think that is it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

What? Scratching my head on this exchange. I did not see any one calling someone “stupid” maybe I missed something, I don’t get it.

But I am just a DAT so what do I know lol.

warspite1

Very simple:

I asked Trugrit a question.

Ian R decided he didn't like the manner of the question and that I was gaslighting and 'imposing' my view (see post 181)

I said I thought that was nonsense. I can't see how I was imposing a view by asking a question, nor do I really understand the reference to gaslighting.

Now Ian R has decided that I am repeating myself, even though I was simply giving my opinion on a comment by tolsdorff.

I think that is it?

You're quite right Warspite, it was "talking nonsense" rather than "stupid". And yes you did gaslight truegrit, even though you are denial about it.

Same same, still an insult, and on Erik's stated policy, you personally attacked first.

Up to Erik what happens next.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well I read the definitions and the only ones I liked and understood were the gas lamp ones, the others were too complicated for us DATs.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

So was I, which is why I suggested I'd deal with warspite and sort out his pompous ad hominen posts by myself.

But that does not seem to be the preferred way forward here.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well I read the definitions and the only ones I liked and understood were the gas lamp ones, the others were too complicated for us DATs.

warspite1

This is what one website said:

In the vernacular, the phrase “to gaslight” refers to the act of undermining another person’s reality by denying facts, the environment around them, or their feelings. Targets of gaslighting are manipulated into turning against their cognition, their emotions, and who they fundamentally are as people.

Sadly, I don't know what a DAT is either, but maybe I am one because I can't relate the above to me asking a question of another forum member.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well I read the definitions and the only ones I liked and understood were the gas lamp ones, the others were too complicated for us DATs.

warspite1

This is what one website said:

In the vernacular, the phrase “to gaslight” refers to the act of undermining another person’s reality by denying facts, the environment around them, or their feelings. Targets of gaslighting are manipulated into turning against their cognition, their emotions, and who they fundamentally are as people.

Sadly, I don't know what a DAT is either, but maybe I am one because I can't relate the above to me asking a question of another forum member.

Do you need to have your offensive language to truegrit quoted back to you?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

So was I, which is why I suggested I'd deal with warspite and sort out his pompous ad hominen posts by myself.

But that does not seem to be the preferred way forward here.

warspite1

Ian R, I am not sure what you mean by preferred way. If you believe I have broken forum rules then please report me. I don't believe I have, but then, I am not a moderator.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

DAT

In the Army the crunchies (infantrymen) and mechs (mechanics) used to lovingly (or at least we thought) called us Dumb Assed Tankers or DAT for short.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

After looking through the myriad of threads regarding moderation and Alfred, it comes down to this:

1. There is a vocal minority here who deem themselves the "guardians of knowledge" on the inner workings of WiTP:AE, admittedly a very complex and deep game. They feel they have the right to tell players, many of them new, that they don't know anything, read the manual closer and in some instances, have resulted to unprovoked insults when they just as easily could simply have chosen not to respond to these posts at all. Psychologists call this term a "Spring boarder," which means someone who pushes down on a spring board to elevate themselves, the person/persons put someone down in order to create themselves in the image of 'other' or 'better' than their victim.

2. Then there is the silent majority, who simply want to play the game, engage in discussions on how to play better, understand the game better, doing what human beings do by asking questions that you find on most other forums. They haven't memorized the manual yet and don't have 10+ years of experience with the game. Go take a look at the WiTE2 forums, which is also a quite complex game IMHO, but is much more scalable in terms of AI assistance and less micro managing. I was quite shocked at the difference between the two boards after picking up WiTP:AE for $16 over the holidays and coming over to these forums.

3. Finally, you have a company who realizes things have gotten out of control and have decided to more rigorously enforce a long-existing set of standards of decorum (along with new standards) and is being vilified for doing so. The vocal minority "gatekeepers" are now threatening to leave and in some cases, highlighting their own self-importance and loss for the community if they make good on their threats. All of this smacks of classic narcissism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

1. There is a vocal minority here who deem themselves the "guardians of knowledge" on the inner workings of WiTP:AE, admittedly a very complex and deep game.

quote:

They feel they have the right to tell players, many of them new, that they don't know anything, read the manual closer and in some instances, have resulted to unprovoked insults when they just as easily could simply have chosen not to respond to these posts at all.

quote:

Psychologists call this term a "Spring boarder," which means someone who pushes down on a spring board to elevate themselves, the person/persons put someone down in order to create themselves in the image of 'other' or 'better' than their victim.

quote:

Then there is the silent majority, who simply want to play the game, engage in discussions on how to play better, understand the game better, doing what human beings do by asking questions that you find on most other forums. They haven't memorized the manual yet and don't have 10+ years of experience with the game. Go take a look at the WiTE2 forums, which is also a quite complex game IMHO, but is much more scalable in terms of AI assistance and less micro managing. I was quite shocked at the difference between the two boards after picking up WiTP:AE for $16 over the holidays and coming over to these forums.

quote:

3. Finally, you have a company who realizes things have gotten out of control and have decided to more rigorously enforce a long-existing set of standards of decorum (along with new standards) and is being vilified for doing so. The vocal minority "gatekeepers" are now threatening to leave and in some cases, highlighting their own self-importance and loss for the community if they make good on their threats. All of this smacks of classic narcissism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Hi all,

I've been a member here for 19.5 years ... and a MOD on the WITP and then AE forums for 6-7 years (roughly Feb 2006 - Aug 2012) ... my interest has been pretty focused on WITP and AE :D ... outside of that, I've been a historical wargamer for zillions of years. Board games, computer games, miniatures and even role-playing.

When David made me a MOD in 2006, he didn't ask me or even tell me, I woke up one morning and I was a MOD ... and I tried hard to wiggle out of it, but David never relented. He was a good MOD trainer.

If I had an issue, I would PM the person and discuss the matter. I think 9 times out of 10 or 19 or of 20, that solved the issue. MODs didn't have banning powers back in those days ... but in the 6.5 years I was a mod, if I had an serious issue, I would escalate to David and he would make the call. I think 3 people got perm bans and maybe 6 got 1 week bans. So we were pretty "gentle" in those days.

David did tell me his standards for the forum were "Your grandmother should be able to come here and be comfortable". I don't think we always enforced that, but that was the vision.

Of course, I was dedicated to the WITP and AE forums only, so that meant I could get really close to the people in those forums ... I lived there along with them. And that probably helped a lot. Well, I had already been a member of the WITP for 4 years before becoming the MOD.

As Erik said, no one is perfect.

As to females on here. I knew (in the internet sense) RhondaBrn ... and she and I got a little personal for a while (not meaning "romantic personal") but she had an off grid power system and I was building one, so she gave me the benefits of her wisdom regarding design and issues based on her experience. So, I think a female can be successful here, though in general wargaming has been a male activity over most of my history in the hobby. When I go to wargame conventions, there are females there, though in much smaller numbers, unless there is a significant role-playing presents at the con.

Erik's been around a long time here and I trust him to make things right and help us transition to the level of "decency" that David really envisioned for this place from the start. It isn't a new idea.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



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