Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I hoped he would do the part two "This is how I uninstall the WITP:AE".

There is no such thing Yaab, you are not allowed to leave once you are inside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

I don't have the "hashmarks" to comment on who posts what, but I will single out Trugrit for the single best post (IMHO) for new players on this forum.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4916799

I have this one bookmarked on my browser and refer to it more often than I want to admit. THIS, gentlemen, is the example we should all follow in welcoming and helping new players to this wonderful, albeit somewhat difficult undertaking the game can be just to set up.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:

So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Here a bit more about the Derby crap:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=533379

Rex Brynnen said:

"Several of the largest organizations of professional wargamers (that is, those who run serious games on national security issues in government, think tanks, etc) have recent endorsed the Derby House Principles on diversity and inclusion in professional wargaming: link

These are not aimed at hobby gaming, but I thought they might be of interest in that they represent emerging best practice on the professional side."

He also says these "rules" were made by someone in UK MoD

I am guessing MG needs to enforce this as they are also in "professional" wargaming business:

https://pro.matrixgames.com

(scroll a bit down to find their partners)

The Derby Principles are not crap. They are a good set of principles that we all should follow.

They are political not by what is inclusive but what is left out (exclusive)

The Derby Principles say this:
“No one should ever feel excluded or less welcome because of gender, ethnicity, religion, disability, or background.”

Gender
ethnicity
religion
disability
background.

What is missing from this set of principles? I think the word would be creed.

https://www.rt.com/usa/474499-political-discrimination-colors-hiring-study/

Because gaming is not just about online forums and games.
Wargamers play in person or in clubs.

Creed would be easy to add to the Derby Principles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Here a bit more about the Derby crap:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=533379

Rex Brynnen said:

"Several of the largest organizations of professional wargamers (that is, those who run serious games on national security issues in government, think tanks, etc) have recent endorsed the Derby House Principles on diversity and inclusion in professional wargaming: link

These are not aimed at hobby gaming, but I thought they might be of interest in that they represent emerging best practice on the professional side."

He also says these "rules" were made by someone in UK MoD

I am guessing MG needs to enforce this as they are also in "professional" wargaming business:

https://pro.matrixgames.com

(scroll a bit down to find their partners)

The Derby Principles are not crap. They are a good set of principles that we all should follow.

They are political not by what is inclusive but what is left out (exclusive)

The Derby Principles say this:
“No one should ever feel excluded or less welcome because of gender, ethnicity, religion, disability, or background.”

Gender
ethnicity
religion
disability
background.

What is missing from this set of principles? I think the word would be creed.

https://www.rt.com/usa/474499-political-discrimination-colors-hiring-study/

Because gaming is not just about online forums and games.
Wargamers play in person or in clubs.

Creed would be easy to add to the Derby Principles.

Hear hear.

And for the record, I substantively disagree with Trugrit on a lot of stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:

So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .

It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:

So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .

It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.

It was and is name calling. But because you are doing it that makes it not name calling? It is a characterization of your and some others attitudes and perceptions but it is not inclusive. If you want to find something to offend you, you can easily do so even if there was no offense meant or even perceived by others.

Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:

So now you are putting an attitude to his tone. He was merely trying to help and in fact was giving good advice to make sure that the correct air unit went onto the preferred ship.

The "golden idol" and "forum golden boy" were also unnecessary name calling as well.

In fact, if you read from other posters, they were happy to receive the information given and not just from Alfred. That way, they did not have to ask the same questions themselves. What is a problem is when someone posts a question, did not like the answer given, then shortly afterwards will ask the same thing only it is slightly reworded. To me, it appears that you developed an attitude fairly quickly . . .

It's not name-calling, it's a characterization of the (prevailing) attitudes and perceptions. You're also trying to create a distinction between attitude and tone, by all appearances because we've never gotten along. Come to think of it, I'm not sure why I bother responding to you at all. It's rarely worthwhile.

It was and is name calling. But because you are doing it that makes it not name calling? It is a characterization of your and some others attitudes and perceptions but it is not inclusive. If you want to find something to offend you, you can easily do so even if there was no offense meant or even perceived by others.

Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.

C'mon RJ - tone is what the receiver feels it to be, and with words and tone you get "connotation" - the impression of what the speaker is really saying even if the words don't include it. If someone felt that Alfred's brusque tone was saying "they are an idiot", that is valid for them to feel that way whether or not we eavesdroppers feel it is so. The issue is over and done with so please - let's not parse the semantics to find reasons to keep arguing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Come to think of it, Alfred did not use the term "idiot" at all in reference to you in that post or thread.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

Personally, my response is: "If it's so easy to find, why don't you (as a supposedly helpful veteran forum member) do that easy thing and then explain it to me?"

There's zero reason to respond with something like "use the search function" or "go read my previous posts on the subject." As if (1) the search function worked very well, and without bothering to explain that googling with the correct "site:matrixgames.com/forums(/AE sub-URL)" search parameter gets best results, and (2) ignoring the fact that finding previous posts, in many cases years-old or even simply out of the poster's 100 most recent post, was at all easy.

Repetitive questions should be the easiest to respond to, and the easiest to not respond to with disdain and aggression. A good forum member would link the most recent thread, if it really does come up that often, or help the new member out with a little coaching on how to use a search engine to search the forums for those elusive, allegedly holy posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

Personally, my response is: "If it's so easy to find, why don't you (as a supposedly helpful veteran forum member) do that easy thing and then explain it to me?"

There's zero reason to respond with something like "use the search function" or "go read my previous posts on the subject." As if (1) the search function worked very well, and without bothering to explain that googling with the correct "site:matrixgames.com/forums(/AE sub-URL)" search parameter gets best results, and (2) ignoring the fact that finding previous posts, in many cases years-old or even simply out of the poster's 100 most recent post, was at all easy.

Repetitive questions should be the easiest to respond to, and the easiest to not respond to with disdain and aggression. A good forum member would link the most recent thread, if it really does come up that often, or help the new member out with a little coaching on how to use a search engine to search the forums for those elusive, allegedly holy posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Sorry if you felt I was bullying you RJ - I just thought you were giving your first response without thinking through what the guys involved in the original dispute must have been feeling. After all, we tend to argue more when our feelings are disturbed.

I have a thick skin and used "fogging" to let Alfred's brusqueness go by so I could consider the good info he provided. Others do not have that skill so they felt insulted. No matter how much anyone thought they deserved it, it is their right to feel that way and Alfred's tone was not the best way to handle the correction of rookie mistakes. So there - I praise Alfred for his knowledge and precision, but do not defend the way he delivers it. I see no need for anyone to take sides as both sides have some valid points which have been well discussed.

Now I'm going to go away and reflect on the times I was annoyed at someone asking about a WITP-AE topic that had already been hashed out multiple times and I was pretty short with them about looking around and seeing if the topic was already raised!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696
Now, I'm just taking a wild assed guess here, but I do not believe that Matrix restricts the sales of games they publish to only males, white, and over 50. Now, I could be wrong, only Eric (who seems to be the only remaining representative of good old Matrix Games), for now we have to deal with Slitherine, so the Slitherine folks would really have to confirm this.

Which brings me to this question: Has anyone even been denied to right to purchase a war game based upon your gender, racial heritage, or age? Does any know of anyone who has been denied the right to purchase a war game based upon their gender, racial heritage, or age? Were you, or anyone you know, denied the right to play a war game (other than parents, wives, bosses, company commanders (a military reference))? I can say that my cats have denied me the right to play board games.

quote:

Really! Think about that for a bit. Could it possibly be that women choose different hobbies to pursue?

quote:

I remember the never ending harassment because I preferred to play against the AI. I'd make a post and some nitwit would insist that I PBEM. Time after time and time after time....... It got so bad that I finally used as my signature statement "I have not, will not, and will never play a PBEM game". It irritated me to no end. I still refuse to play a PBEM game. Thankfully, over the years AI players are now considered to be grudgingly slightly below equal.

quote:

She was permanently banned by Eric. My thinking on this matter was that there was a failure to fully understand what led her to get so angry that she would defy Eric in the manner in which she did.

quote:

Which brings us to the current forum member, very active in these forums, and this thread. He has perfected the art to baiting people to the point at which they finally have had enough and lash back at this baiter-in-chief. He baited her mercilessly. To me he has attempted to do so repeatedly, one time when he and another member were disparaging my military service by ending one of his baiting tirades saying "but I don't know what your criminal record is".

quote:

For my early 75th birthday present I am granting myself a more serene, peaceful and less stressful life. It is too short to have to put up with the crap that occurs on a daily basis here. This forum has been a good source of knowledge, but when the cost of acquiring that knowledge is to have your dignity degraded and your character attacked, then the cost of that knowledge is too high.

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

In a few days I will be turning 75 years old. This post will serve as an early birthday present to myself.

I started playing war games in 1967, the old Avalon Hill series. Can't remember which was the first. My wife and I met a fella motorcycling from San Francisco to Hobbs, New Mexico to visit relatives and we befriended him. He introduced me to commercially available war games. Previously I had experimented with using road maps and pieces of tape on them to represent military units and attempting to figure out a rudimentary combat system. The best I could come up at the time was that if I had 3 times as many troops in a combat then the opponent had 3 times the causalities inflicted on him.

I have purchased many hundreds of war games over the years, from retail stores such as the local hobby shop in Scottsdale, Arizona to Best Buy to, well, I can't recall the name of the specialty chain stores selling computer games and software. I can say that never once was I denied the ability to purchase a game or prevented from playing it. However, I am male. I am considered white (but I also have an American Heritage ago). Until 1997 I was also under 50. I can say that I have never seen, nor have I ever heard of anyone being denied the ability to purchase a war game - providing to could provide the appropriate money to do so.

For the last 20 plus years internet online sales have become the prime method of purchasing war games. I believe there are 5 companies with whom I have done business, Matrix Games being primary one. When I would purchase a game from Matrix, or any other company, I was never asked if I was male, female, or it. I was never asked as to which racial heritage I claim to be from. I was never asked my age. Now, I'm just taking a wild assed guess here, but I do not believe that Matrix restricts the sales of games they publish to only males, white, and over 50. Now, I could be wrong, only Eric (who seems to be the only remaining representative of good old Matrix Games), for now we have to deal with Slitherine, so the Slitherine folks would really have to confirm this.

Which brings me to this question: Has anyone even been denied to right to purchase a war game based upon your gender, racial heritage, or age? Does any know of anyone who has been denied the right to purchase a war game based upon their gender, racial heritage, or age? Were you, or anyone you know, denied the right to play a war game (other than parents, wives, bosses, company commanders (a military reference))? I can say that my cats have denied me the right to play board games.

Really! Think about that for a bit. Could it possibly be that women choose different hobbies to pursue?

In 2004 I decided to become an active forum member. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, I have not posted very often. These forums are filled with animosity. Back in those early days I became active because of the original War in the Pacific game. I am one who plays against the AI. I remember the never ending harassment because I preferred to play against the AI. I'd make a post and some nitwit would insist that I PBEM. Time after time and time after time....... It got so bad that I finally used as my signature statement "I have not, will not, and will never play a PBEM game". It irritated me to no end. I still refuse to play a PBEM game. Thankfully, over the years AI players are now considered to be grudgingly slightly below equal.

Over the years I have only taken note of 3 self identified women in these forums. Graffin Zeppelin here (she faded away), Rhonda Brown (she sadly passed away), and MrsWargamer (she received a permanent ban). I wish I could say that I never say any harassment of these women, but I did primarily from one current forum member. I am fairly astute at reading certain forums and follow them well.

She was permanently banned by Eric. My thinking on this matter was that there was a failure to fully understand what led her to get so angry that she would defy Eric in the manner in which she did. Which brings us to the current forum member, very active in these forums, and this thread. He has perfected the art to baiting people to the point at which they finally have had enough and lash back at this baiter-in-chief. He baited her mercilessly. To me he has attempted to do so repeatedly, one time when he and another member were disparaging my military service by ending one of his baiting tirades saying "but I don't know what your criminal record is".

That is not against forum rules, but it certainly tended to rile the hell out of me. Just yesterday Loksenna (probably misspelled) was the subject of his baiting. I am sure that any forum member who reads here regularly will know who this individual is.

For my early 75th birthday present I am granting myself a more serene, peaceful and less stressful life. It is too short to have to put up with the crap that occurs on a daily basis here. This forum has been a good source of knowledge, but when the cost of acquiring that knowledge is to have your dignity degraded and your character attacked, then the cost of that knowledge is too high.

Semper Fi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

But I was a teenager in the late 70's/early 80's and I remember my mom taking me to various hobby shops in Washington State and also dropping me off at the U of W and playing college kids board war games from SPI and AH back then. However, I'll never forgot the day in 1978 when I had 10 bucks (my months allowance) and walked into the white and green Stadium Hobby shop and pulled out a AH game I never saw before and read the back of the box and was instantly hooked.

...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

But I was a teenager in the late 70's/early 80's and I remember my mom taking me to various hobby shops in Washington State and also dropping me off at the U of W and playing college kids board war games from SPI and AH back then. However, I'll never forgot the day in 1978 when I had 10 bucks (my months allowance) and walked into the white and green Stadium Hobby shop and pulled out a AH game I never saw before and read the back of the box and was instantly hooked.

...

I don't recall the Stadium Hobby shop. On most weekends in 78, I would have been at American Eagles just north of the UW campus, buying GHC micro armor for a game of Tractics while my father bought another Tamiya waterline kit or another Spitfire model. Near the end of his life, he decided to finish all the Spitfire kits he had bought over the years but never finished. There were thirteen.

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs



American Eagles was a blast! We used to meet every Saturday to game. I met John Fernandez (SPI and Micro Armor GHQ) and Charles Sharp (GDW) there.

Stadium was in an old mall (probably gone now, the mall that is) in Lakewood, near the Lakewood Public Library. In the strip mall there was a music store and another store where I found out about SPI and that really opened me up to war games. This was all 1978-83 ish.