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RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peeking Big Ivan!)

 
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RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/17/2022 6:49:02 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		^The "?" losses are one Leader and two Recon SPs, so "??" equals to 14 Rifle Platoon SPs then.

The two full strength platoons I assaulted were likely 6 SPs each, so that's 2 SPs with other platoons.

I don't know their strength, but they were spread out quite wide, so there must be still plenty of 7th Cavalry to be shot at...

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Post #: 31
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/17/2022 7:38:10 PM   
berto


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Oh, those NVA intelligence officers are really astute!

Maybe we need to obscure the Enhanced Reporting even further?

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Post #: 32
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/17/2022 7:59:21 PM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		The Enhanced Fog of War etc are working quite nicely, aren’t they. It is quite, foggy, out there. Probe with bayonets…

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Post #: 33
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 3:37:58 PM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		NVA Turn #6 of 12 - Halfway point!

... and we go again! To recap,


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Looking at Strength Report, we can observe the Enhanced Fog of War in play, not much information there. Having kept note of my successes, I know the three types of losses they've had are Recon and Rifle platoons and a Commander.

Looking then at Victory Status, I can immediately note they've been awarded for holding onto LZ Albany. In addition, it seems they gain 10VP per turn they hold onto that Objective there.

So, despite of my rather good Kill Ratio, I am not out of woods yet. Including the -10 Event Point penalty I've been given.

Regardless, plenty to fight for!

File sent, expecting to see their Close Air Support arrive come next turn. Hiding in the jungle, meanwhile, keeping my distance where I can!


... no, I am not seeing their CAS arrive quite just yet, but their whole 105mm Battalion was available as I observed six Artillery fire missions landing at our heads. Either the fire scattered, or Big Ivan, the old fox that he is, plotted it around the expected NVA avenues of approach.

Artillery, and their Direct Fire during their turn, hit me with five step losses, 3 Rifle Platoon B losses with 2 MMG losses. There was a unit not revealed south of their westernmost area as well, marking it here.

Four Disruptions, too, and only one recovered. 7th Cavalry is here for a fight!




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< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/19/2022 3:42:08 PM >

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Post #: 34
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 3:40:53 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Artillery, and their Direct Fire during their turn, hit me with five step losses, 3 Rifle Platoon B losses with 2 MMG losses. There was a unit not revealed south of their westernmost area as well, marking it here.

Four Disruptions, too, and only one recovered.


Here's a closer lookup of my losses during US Side A phase for Turn #6. On a more positive note, I have two out of the three Mortar batteries available, including the 82mm one.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/19/2022 3:41:55 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 3:53:13 PM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		In order to cause some damage to the hostiles as well, time to go on an offensive then!

Those Disrupts on that overstacked hex next to those two US Rifle Platoons + one Recon Section (you can tell their unit type from the little colored bar on chits: those bars repeat the unit type color from NATO symbols on chits).

Regardless, the plan (1) is to have some units over the Shallow stream side to their side to fire some suppressing fire on those units. Of course, while executing that plan (2), there's an unrevealed US unit on top of that ridge south of those units, Op Firing at my units. Luckily, no effect!

Having maneuvered to assaulting positions (3) and having direct fired at that hex first, time to assault! This looks a bit suspect, but maybe some lucky die rolls? Nope, the frontal assault was properly defended by the US units, with further 2 SP losses for my units!

I am attacking from a (too) narrow area, so this is pretty much what I can achieve here. I am not leaving an Overstacked hex there (overstack is an hex with more than 12 Strenght Points, with a penalty for Defensive modifierds), as I am anticipating more Direct Fire, then Artillery, and likely, Close Air Support missions come next turn!

So moved (4) my two Assaulting platoons back a hex. Luckily, they were not Disrupted, and instead of another assault I choose to move them for safety.

Will be interesting to see what if any I managed to cause them, though. Typically you want to assault in a manner where you can have multiple assaults from multiple hex sides, something that I am failing to do here.




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Post #: 36
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 3:56:51 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Will be interesting to see what if any I managed to cause them, though. Typically you want to assault in a manner where you can have multiple assaults from multiple hex sides, something that I am failing to do here.


Here's the overall situation at the end of play for Turn #6. I managed to take out 4 steppes from the US roster. If that was the defending hex I assaulted, if only I would have been able to put another assault in... John's positioned his defensive line quite well, this will be quite a tough nut to crack!

Possibly, leaving me with a broken tooth? Nope, not saying that, having witnessed what happened to previous Political Officer reporting behind this callsign! People's Army Will Be Victorious!

Edit: forgot to add I tried to put up a little diversive attack at the western edge of the valley, but their Op Fire caused a retreat for my first platoon, so moved my second platoon out of sight there as well.




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< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/19/2022 3:58:23 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 3:58:56 PM   
Crossroads


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Status: offline 		That's it, file sent!

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?



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Post #: 38
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 5:36:08 PM   
devoncop


Posts: 1304
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		Just wondering...is it more effective to launch two separate assaults from two different directions ( maybe using one or more units from different hexes each time ) or better to throw everything you have available in all adjoining hexes to the enemy at him in one big attack ?


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Post #: 39
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 5:43:18 PM   
carll11


Posts: 791
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Status: offline 		OK- first the US regt. had orders to move ON and slightly ahead of the map locale you have marked as 10 VPs.So Ivan got to pick a decent def. position he shouldn't have been able to until his forward Co. got chewed up ;) ( compliments Larry Gwin, author of 'Baptism' a memoir of Vietnam, who was there ( as a captain) at the fight for LZ Albany). My point is, does the US even if they do survive, suffer a penalty ( aside from the enemy getting points) for not occupying that VP hex? Are there any others forward of that VP hex, cant tell.

OK so the effects of US arty? Accuracy ? Not much mention of that...Airstrikes?






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Post #: 40
RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 6:02:54 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: devoncop

Just wondering...is it more effective to launch two separate assaults from two different directions ( maybe using one or more units from different hexes each time ) or better to throw everything you have available in all adjoining hexes to the enemy at him in one big attack ?


To "dumb down" the Enhanced Assault logic, here's how I typically approach it:

  • Try to reduce the unit(s) defending there. Defender Morale is key here, so kills, disruptions, morale losses, they all can be an outcome if you have been able to pound the hex first with your air, indirect, direct fire units, what ever available.
  • Then, you would be basically looking for an assault where you can assault the hex from opposite sides, or at least from multiple sides. There's an advantage to that.
  • As for multiple assaults, yes, I would go for two or more assaults with decent odds rather than for one with really good odds. There's the chance defender Morale dropping, assault by assault, until they collapse.

    Optimally, you would be able to assault even twice per assaulting unit, but for instance the assault I did this turn took 51 Action Points to execute (movement factors to assaulted hex, then the assault cost). Annoyingly, just one assault then.

    I would have risked it with another if available, even if that would have meant I am stuck with an overstacked hex again...

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    • Post #: 41
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 6:04:42 PM   
    Crossroads


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: carll11

    OK- first the US regt. had orders to move ON and slightly ahead of the map locale you have marked as 10 VPs.So Ivan got to pick a decent def. position he shouldn't have been able to until his forward Co. got chewed up ;) ( compliments Larry Gwin, author of 'Baptism' a memoir of Vietnam, who was there ( as a captain) at the fight for LZ Albany). My point is, does the US even if they do survive, suffer a penalty ( aside from the enemy getting points) for not occupying that VP hex? Are there any others forward of that VP hex, cant tell.

    OK so the effects of US arty? Accuracy ? Not much mention of that...Airstrikes?


    Sorry, I will try to be more specific come next turn as what the US arty (there's been a lot of that so far) and airstrikes (none so far I think) will do.

    As whether US would get a penalty losing LZ Albany, I would not know, I am not sure Big Ivan knows either? It would be on his side specific Scenario Briefing, go have a look there. Just don't tell me here what it was


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    Post #: 42
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 6:17:49 PM   
    devoncop


    Posts: 1304
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: devoncop

    Just wondering...is it more effective to launch two separate assaults from two different directions ( maybe using one or more units from different hexes each time ) or better to throw everything you have available in all adjoining hexes to the enemy at him in one big attack ?


    To "dumb down" the Enhanced Assault logic, here's how I typically approach it:

  • Try to reduce the unit(s) defending there. Defender Morale is key here, so kills, disruptions, morale losses, they all can be an outcome if you have been able to pound the hex first with your air, indirect, direct fire units, what ever available.
  • Then, you would be basically looking for an assault where you can assault the hex from opposite sides, or at least from multiple sides. There's an advantage to that.
  • As for multiple assaults, yes, I would go for two or more assaults with decent odds rather than for one with really good odds. There's the chance defender Morale dropping, assault by assault, until they collapse.

    Optimally, you would be able to assault even twice per assaulting unit, but for instance the assault I did this turn took 51 Action Points to execute (movement factors to assaulted hex, then the assault cost). Annoyingly, just one assault then.

    I would have risked it with another if available, even if that would have meant I am stuck with an overstacked hex again...


    • That is really helpful. So morale as much as SP is crucial.




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    Post #: 43
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 6:26:01 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    Status: offline     		Well here's hoping I can do a textbook assault on them later in this battle! He's doing his best to have my units Disrupted and not assault-capable, of course

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    Post #: 44
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 6:36:35 PM   
    devoncop


    Posts: 1304
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    Status: offline     		Can't complain about the historical accuracy of that problem 🙂

    Just remember that historically technology lost to determination !


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    Post #: 45
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 6:41:52 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    Status: offline     		Ha, you're right of course. I might have overthought this one, maybe I should have just ordered everyone to fix their bayonets and to run at'em from word go

    Intense little scenario for sure!

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    Post #: 46
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 7:34:31 PM   
    Jason Petho


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    quote:

    Just wondering...is it more effective to launch two separate assaults from two different directions ( maybe using one or more units from different hexes each time ) or better to throw everything you have available in all adjoining hexes to the enemy at him in one big attack ?


    Assaulting from multiple directions will give you bonuses. Either as a flanking assault or a surrounding assault, depending on from which hexes you're assaulting.

    Watch the Ap Bac playthrough for more understanding on how to assault.

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    Post #: 47
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 7:47:01 PM   
    devoncop


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    Status: offline     		Hi Jason

    Yes I saw that... my question was rather is it better to make multiple assaults from two or three different directions as you were trying at Ap Bac or use all the units that are capable of assaulting in a single all in assault (but still from multiple directions).

    From what Crossroads suggests it may be better to split the assaults as a way of wearing down morale.


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    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 7:59:00 PM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
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    Status: offline     		Ah yes, that is correct

    Multiple assaults will wear down the morale... but will cause some more casualties. So it's a trade off.

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    Post #: 49
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/19/2022 8:35:06 PM   
    Twotribes


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: devoncop

    Can't complain about the historical accuracy of that problem 🙂

    Just remember that historically technology lost to determination !


    No it did not, the Tet Offensive wiped out the Viet Cong and after that it was down hill for the North.

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    Post #: 50
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/20/2022 4:38:11 PM   
    Crossroads


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    Status: offline     		NVA Turn #7 of 12

    Bling, says the email, another turn from Big Ivan just arrived!

    Here's the replay, dang, two Artillery batteries spot on target, direct fire, he is doing a really good job keeping my key units disrupted!

    Oh, there's the dreaded gunships, too, just visible in battle replay. Two scouts, then two, three gunships? This is not getting any easier!

    Two strength points lost. Could have been worse. If not for the disruptions. He's doing a good job pinning me down!

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    Well here's hoping I can do a textbook assault on them later in this battle! He's doing his best to have my units Disrupted and not assault-capable, of course


    Latter, check! Former, well, as long's there life there's hope!

    EDIT: File attachment issue solved, here we go then!




    Attachment (1)

    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/21/2022 10:22:40 AM >

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    Post #: 51
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/20/2022 5:58:47 PM   
    devoncop


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Twotribes


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: devoncop

    Can't complain about the historical accuracy of that problem 🙂

    Just remember that historically technology lost to determination !


    No it did not, the Tet Offensive wiped out the Viet Cong and after that it was down hill for the North.


    An interesting perspective .....

    More US servicemen were killed in 1969 than in 1967 (over 11700) so the VC were remarkably effective in 1969 given your claim they had been " wiped out in 1968.

    I do agree that Tet was a military defeat for the VC though....but a big propaganda success of course.



    < Message edited by devoncop -- 1/20/2022 6:05:18 PM >

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    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/20/2022 6:51:28 PM   
    Twotribes


    Posts: 6929
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    Status: offline     		The supposed Viet Cong after Tet were all NV regulars slipped in from loas and Cambodia. South Viet Nam never fell to insurgency it was over run by a conventional army attack 25 NV divisions to 12 South Vietnam Divisions.

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    Post #: 53
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/21/2022 10:10:37 AM   
    Crossroads


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    EDIT: File attachment issue solved, here we go then!


    Okies, I made some notes, and it was just yesterday, so maybe I can still remember something that went on!

    With replay done, and the friendly Artillery phase observed - it all hit their plotted destinations - time to move on again. Where I can, that is. John's doing a very good job at keeping me pinned, but it's not all Disruption here.

    With Concealment die rolls done, I have now a better view of his position on top of that small ridge there. Commander, and a Rifle platoon. IIRC. Or maybe it was a Recon section.

    Moving to Ridge top myself, I soften that position first with Fire Support units, then move some Rifle Platoons there, too.

    Having considered my options, with Ridgetop being perhaps the softer target, I decide to go at his main defensive position securing the Objective. Commander, two Rifle platoons, one Recon section. Slightly overstacked, maybe, although John's likely looked at his casualties there and is keeping a max of 12 Strength Points there.

    Assault! Not enough power, I take two step losses, let us wait for end of turn to look at their butcher's bill, too.

    With that, I am a bit better spread out, to move forward again come next turn.




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    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/21/2022 10:22:53 AM >

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    Post #: 54
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/21/2022 10:15:27 AM   
    Crossroads


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    With that, I am a bit better spread out, to move forward again come next turn.


    Here's the situation at end of play Turn #7 for the North Vietnamese Army side. I feel the tide is slowly turning for the US player, especially as he now has his gunships there to support him too.

    Hey, I signed for LZ Albany, this is turning into LZ X-Ray!

    I've still taken more US strength out than what I've lost so far, so there's that. Four friendly steps lost, two hostile ones taken out, though. Let us see if I can hang in for a result here!

    Plotted my indirect fire missions, just one 60mm battery available this time around. That's it, file sent.

    Here's a little doodle for the next turn to remind me to try to spread out a bit more. Lots to play here, still!




    Attachment (1)

    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/21/2022 10:22:13 AM >

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    Post #: 55
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/21/2022 2:26:34 PM   
    devoncop


    Posts: 1304
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    Status: offline     		Heck of a scrap going on there....

    You dont have any AA guns by any chance do you ?



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    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/21/2022 3:57:03 PM   
    Crossroads


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: devoncop

    Heck of a scrap going on there....

    You dont have any AA guns by any chance do you ?



    I have MMGs which can do AA as well. That's it, though. Just need to save Action Points for Opportunity Fire against Helicopters. I did set up my Opportunity Fire parameters to allow for this in the beginning, I think. Have to doublecheck!

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    Post #: 57
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/22/2022 1:08:22 PM   
    Crossroads


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    Status: offline     		NVA Turn #8 of 12

    So, with not a little trepidation, I watched the US replay for their phase for Turn #8.

    Sure enough, Artillery, spot on again. Btw, the high standard of US artillery is modelled in their Adaptive AI parameters, much less chances for fire missions drifting. Then, the actual replay of their turn, with movement, direct fire, etc.

    Stop. No Close Air Support missions this time around either. I must have fallen for some bad intel in the beginning! At least I am replaying my role as a shaken NVA commander after how it played out just previously at LZ X-RAY. "We Were Soldiers" and the terrific battle scene there has been on my mind the whole time. OK. That's a relief. I think. I would not assume they'd been saving their CAS for so long? Surely not?

    Not that the replay was any pleasure to watch, either. Hogs appeared, after the recce helos slipped in first, did their damage. I had saved a couple of MMG missions to them but no hits. They certainly hit me.

    Here's the situation after replay:

  • Bad news: they scored another 100 Event Points, likely for again holding LZ Albany objective for four consecutive turns. That is hurting me badly, I am not filling my mission here.
  • Good news: all my Disrupted units recovered. They are getting angry! I can hit back better now.

    By the way, I switched to Unit Images on Counters option for a change. I have a good idea what's out there, I don't need the NATO symbol intel that badly now.




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    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/22/2022 1:11:54 PM >

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    (in reply to Crossroads)
    • Post #: 58
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/22/2022 1:27:09 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    Good news: all my Disrupted units recovered. They are getting angry! I can hit back better now.


    So let us spend a bit more time here. The plan was to spread out more come this turn, so starting with the western edge, let us start to threaten LZ Albany, again. I have two units there, a SP3 (three strength points) Rifle platoon, and a SP6 Rifle platoon.

    Expecting Op Fire, I moved the weaker one in first. Not a shot. Are they spent? Did they not see such a small unit approaching? More SPs in a hex, more likely they are seen.

    And true enough, I move my SP6 platoon there, they are op fired, resulting in a Retreat. Rats.

    Interestingly enough, as their Op Fire revealed the defending unit, I fired at it with the remaining SP3 platoon, and the US unit there scored a Retreat dieroll!

    I got some Op Fire back from the adjacent hex, with no results. So another unit there. But: is the objective now empty? Let us try to find out!





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    (in reply to Crossroads)
    Post #: 59
    RE: DAR as NVA: Battle of LZ Albany 11/17/1965 (No peek... - 1/22/2022 1:42:08 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    But: is the objective now empty? Let us try to find out!


    First, let us toggle Movement Range = ON (see the "Range" toolbar icon group there) and see where we're at. Great, I can move there even without doubletiming anyone. From two hexes, even!

    So here's the plan: First, ensure the US stack I have had problems for several turns now is out of Op Fire. So let us fire at it from the adjacent hexes a good few times. Then, let us move out from the two hexes into the Objective (if empty!). Only possible, if the defending stack is out of Op Fire. Gamey? No, this is how suppressing fire works at this level. Pin them down first, they do want to respond to that, then move out with other units.

    Firing at them, then moving more units to fire at them, I get Op Fire back, no effect. As usual per Fog of War rules, I don't know if I hit him. I did cycle through all his units on that stack, though.

    Finally, charge!

    ... and the "empty" hex fires back. Opportunity fire. There's someone there, I just don't see him. Rats+1!

    Oh well, it sure got interesting for a bit!




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    Post #: 60
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