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Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets

 
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Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 7:32:11 AM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline 		Default fleet behaviour might need work, at least based on what I've seen on streams.

At present all ships in a fleet face-check targets, then stop, turn slowly, wiggle around a bit, and often spend a lot of their time with guns facing the wrong way and exposing their rear to incoming damage (and potentially leading to more engine damage than should be the case?). The more ships in a fleet, the more 'clown-like' this behaviour becomes as all ships struggle to avoid not only the target but also each other.

This behaviour is best observed when engaging a (near enough) stationary target, such as a monster or station. With Fleet vs Fleet everything is moving so this happens less but every ship is still seemingly trying to face-check their target.

Is there a setting in the game to prevent this and, say, _encourage_ ships to remain at 25/50/100% of average weapon range distance from their target?
Post #: 1
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 8:50:18 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

Default fleet behaviour might need work, at least based on what I've seen on streams.

At present all ships in a fleet face-check targets, then stop, turn slowly, wiggle around a bit, and often spend a lot of their time with guns facing the wrong way and exposing their rear to incoming damage (and potentially leading to more engine damage than should be the case?). The more ships in a fleet, the more 'clown-like' this behaviour becomes as all ships struggle to avoid not only the target but also each other.

This behaviour is best observed when engaging a (near enough) stationary target, such as a monster or station. With Fleet vs Fleet everything is moving so this happens less but every ship is still seemingly trying to face-check their target.

Is there a setting in the game to prevent this and, say, _encourage_ ships to remain at 25/50/100% of average weapon range distance from their target?


Allot of streamers don't use the ship stance and automation tools and they often default to the aggressive stance that make the ship simply run up at point bank range and try to stay there. If you set that at, for example, cautious stance ships would likely try and stay at range and be allot more careful. Likewise most streamers also don't change at what time a ship will retreat or evade their targets, so ships take way too much damage and get destroyed too easily rather than retreat and save itself.

For example... if you have some picket escort don't EVER put them on aggressive... that will make them charge the enemy straight ahead and just get them self killed in cross fire, always put them on cautious mode and perhaps neutral if they feel superior. That should make them surround or circle the opponent rather than charge them and just die... just an example of how you probably should use the fleet stances to useful effect. Picket is more about screening and annoying the opponent, perhaps entice them to break up their formation so they can't concentrate their fire, which is dangerous.

Not saying that the ship AI need some work, but I have seen very little use of the fleet and ship tactics in pretty much any streams. If all you do is point and click and put everything to aggressive and only retreat when they ship is nearly destroyed you also get that behaviour and not a very good experience as a result. Aggressive obviously have its uses but more often and not it will lead to unnecessary losses, especially if you are overwhelmed and don't react quickly enough to retreat manually.

But I will let the developer answer this as well as they might still be working on these things. Someone said in a stream allot of the fleet and ship tactics were just added quite recently to the the game so they might still be tweaking their behaviours.

From what I have seen the AI seem to also be a bit too aggressive sometimes, thus having their ships destroyed a bit too much when retreating long before the engagement even start would be the more prudent thing to do.


< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/2/2022 8:57:03 AM >

(in reply to stryc)
Post #: 2
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 9:30:27 AM   
stryc

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline 		Encouraging.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 3
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 2:53:47 PM   
Darkmater

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 1/26/2022
Status: offline 		This is of interest to me as well, combat in some streams doesn’t showcase potential dynamics of hit and run, keep maneuvering, etc. maybe the hits are calculated at time of fire vs. on the go. I really enjoyed this in sword of the stars where highly maneuverable and maneuvering ships could dodge shots. Where stationary targets got beat to hell. This gave a tactical reason to manage speed and maneuverability of ship designs.

(in reply to stryc)
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RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 2:58:19 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkmater

This is of interest to me as well, combat in some streams doesn’t showcase potential dynamics of hit and run, keep maneuvering, etc. maybe the hits are calculated at time of fire vs. on the go. I really enjoyed this in sword of the stars where highly maneuverable and maneuvering ships could dodge shots. Where stationary targets got beat to hell. This gave a tactical reason to manage speed and maneuverability of ship designs.

I could not name any sources on the spot, but my understanding si that total evade is Countermeasures + actuall Speed.
So yeah, moving maters. And it seems to be mostly a setting issue it does not happen so often.

(in reply to Darkmater)
Post #: 5
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 4:11:14 PM   
Ranbir


Posts: 142
Joined: 3/28/2010
Status: offline 		Even on aggressive stance what is the point of that meaning point blank range? Shouldn't it mean be aggressive but also still move around and cycle your firing arcs and focus on firing all your weapons?

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RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 4:37:39 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline 		I would guess the goal of agressive is to bring weapons with low range and/or realy quick damge falloff to bear.
Stuff like Graviton beams. With those getting close and staying close is paramount.

(in reply to Ranbir)
Post #: 7
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 6:01:14 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		This is a very complex area of the code and design and the options for the player and AI related to those options are both greatly improved since DW1. With that said, we now also have weapon fire arcs and 3D collisions to avoid, so it's fairly complicated. As a player, you can reduce this by understanding your tactical settings. There are also further improvements on the AI side that are likely to be ongoing in this area as we get examples of incorrect behavior. However, in general the AI will try to do this:

1. Looking at what it knows about its own ships and the target (and the target's weapons) and based on its tactical settings (as defined by its fleet template, ship template, player orders) pick the optimal range for engagement AND pick the optimal facing for its weapon array and arcs to maximize firepower on the enemy while minimizing return firepower. If the enemy doesn't move, that makes this easier. If the enemy is moving, this requires regular adjustments.

2. Avoid colliding/overlapping with other ships, ideally by going up or down on the Z axis if not possible to go around on the main plane of play.

3. With regard to the tactical settings and your weapons, if your ship mainly has a lot of short-range weapons, it will try to close. If it has longer range weapons, it will try to stay at longer range if the enemy is only short-ranged. The faster ship also matters here and the tactical settings matter a lot.

4. There are many cases where some of these priorities conflict and the AI has to make the best of a conflicting situation.

I've seen some situations in some of the preview videos where it's not doing as well as we'd like, especially when fighting against space creatures, and we'll work to minimize those.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 2/2/2022 6:02:28 PM >

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(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 8
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 9:29:07 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline 		What are the differences between the ship settings of aggressive, neutral or cautious... I certainly thought this had something to do with the how happy the ship is to position itself in a bad spot. So a cautious ship would try to use movement and range and try to avoid enemy fire as much as possible while being able to at least use some weapons of their own, but perhaps not optimise their firepower as much as avoiding damage.

Would that be a fair estimation in the cautious setting?

On Aggressive the ship would always try to optimise its firepower, even sacrifice itself in enemy crossfire to do so. Thus it simply charge the opponent and try to get into as optimal fire position as it can.

I guess it will take a while to understand that both ship design and tactics will impact the behaviour of the ships. I just wonder how a ship would behave if they have say primarily missiles and then some maxos blasters for close in defence. You probably would like to use stand off as much as possible but can still do decent damage up close too, question is how such a ship would behave. I guess most of the large weapons are missiles and the smaller one blasters, in this specific case.

Also... do ship only care about it's relation to its target, or does it recognise other ships around for incoming fire as well, at least those that fire at it?

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/2/2022 9:37:41 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 9
RE: Observed Odd Fleet Behaviour - Face-Checking Targets - 2/2/2022 10:23:47 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		In short, an Aggressive ship will focus on maximizing its own firepower without worrying so much about the enemy's firepower. This often results in it closing to short range regardless.

A neutral ship will try to consider the factors I described above and find a way to maximize its firepower while still limiting the enemy's firepower as much as possible.

A cautious ship will prioritize avoiding the enemy's firepower as much as possible while still being able to use some of its own weapons.

The weapon choices in the design, ship speed and firepower and range relative to the enemy, tactical settings and fleet as well as ship orders can all play a role in how the ship behaves.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 10
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